Overall, the changes sound good. The LL specific mechanic I am most concerned about there would be Ghorsts; relying on another faction to get strong to get your benefits does not sound interesting or engaging. More zombie focused stuff could be interesting however, especially if it is not just more random buffs to stack on zombies. Perhaps he could be one of main ones who gets bigger corpse cart range?

Generic mechanic wise, the converting mortal generic lords is the other one I could see being difficult/annoying if all vampires get access to it as readily as Be'lakor can access his DP conversion, but if it is more limited then it would be an incredibly fitting mechanic without being frustrating (and if limited in a way that does not hinder the palyer much, but prevents the ai from converting every character in a large radius, all the better)

Mannfred getting a unique line would be a nice improvement to him, but I hope it does not come at the cost of having his dual lore access; the mixed lores are an unfortunate thing that has become prevalent and leaves many casters with poor selections that we have no way to influence

​

TOOTHBRUSHDUCK#1134 wrote:

Overall, the changes sound good. The LL specific mechanic I am most concerned about there would be Ghorsts; relying on another faction to get strong to get your benefits does not sound interesting or engaging. More zombie focused stuff could be interesting however, especially if it is not just more random buffs to stack on zombies. Perhaps he could be one of main ones who gets bigger corpse cart range?

Generic mechanic wise, the converting mortal generic lords is the other one I could see being difficult/annoying if all vampires get access to it as readily as Be'lakor can access his DP conversion, but if it is more limited then it would be an incredibly fitting mechanic without being frustrating (and if limited in a way that does not hinder the palyer much, but prevents the ai from converting every character in a large radius, all the better)

Mannfred getting a unique line would be a nice improvement to him, but I hope it does not come at the cost of having his dual lore access; the mixed lores are an unfortunate thing that has become prevalent and leaves many casters with poor selections that we have no way to influence

Perhaps for the turning mortal lords thing, you have a way of summoning a unique agent and having them do it?

They don't need a rework.  They need a Bloodlines Lord Pack.  4 new LLs from different Bloodlines should give them all kinds of neat new mechanics.

Outside a Lord Pack, I'd suggest:

Get rid of the generic Vampire Lord and Ghoul King.  They're redundant with the Von Carstein Lord and Strigoi Lord.

Give the two Necromancer LLs completely different Faction mechanics from the Vampire LLs.

Make Krell a full LH.

​

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

They don't need a rework.  They need a Bloodlines Lord Pack.  4 new LLs from different Bloodlines should give them all kinds of neat new mechanics.

Outside a Lord Pack, I'd suggest:

Get rid of the generic Vampire Lord and Ghoul King.  They're redundant with the Von Carstein Lord and Strigoi Lord.

Give the two Necromancer LLs completely different Faction mechanics from the Vampire LLs.

Make Krell a full LH.

That bloodlines DLC would only have new mechanics for the new lords, leaving the old ones in the dust. I agree with Krell being a proper LH

What I do miss with vampires in this game is the feeding onto mortals to stay alive stay undead and become stronger and convert mortals into vamps.

​

Ben1990#8909 wrote:

Lords:

Remove the generic Vampire Lord and Strigoi Ghoul King and replace them with the Bloodline Lords who are straight-up superior and much more fun. Rework the current generic Vampire Hero into a von Carstein one and add in four more vampire heroes from the other four bloodlines.

However make them also more powerful yet at the same time change the way you recruit them.

By that you take the Ice Court mechanic and change it into a Vampire Awakening mechanic where you spend either Blood Kisses. The more Blood Kisses you use the vampire awaken with more strong traits.

This also would make the player to use Necromancers and Necromancer Lords more often. This also would require the addition of a new generic lord option in the form of the Barrow Kings that would be promoted from heroes to lords option (and to differentiate them from Wight Kings).

Necromancer Lords get buffs to their skills. They should become the masters of instantly raising whole armies. Should also get a skill that further increases the percentage chance of raising a regiment. Not to mention giving them a price decrease to Lore of Vampires spells and buffs to raising zombies on the battlefield.

Mechanics:

Three in fact.

1. The Vampire Awakening mechanic mentioned earlier in order to balance out the fact that the Vampire Lords are Bloodline ones and that they are stronger. However to mitigate the fact that you have to pay for them with Blood Kisses, the very Blood Kisses will now appear much often and are tied to generic lords and heroes too. You get Blood Kisses from conquering settlements (the amount depends on the tier), slaying lords and heroes (the latter either in battle or via the Assassinate action), through specific rituals, diplomacy, any sabotage-related action against settlements and so on. The more you pay for a Vampire Lord's awakening the more traits he gets like Ice Witches do. This goes for Vampire Heroes too.
   
2. The Bloodlines mechanic is now expanded and enhanced. Every bloodline tier is now divided into three tiers with three segments each and you don't require to fill them all (just two) in order to advance to the next tier. However, filling out a segment gives you a small bonus and filling all segments in a tier gives you all the small bonuses from each segment along with a bonus from a filled-up tier. Tiers vary and they either give you a flat-out bonus or give you a smaller one while unlocking something for your use (from tactical spells for battlefield use, strategic rituals that give you things like Blood Kisses or buffs to certain elements of your empire, ability to produce items/ancillarie, to campaign-exclusive units and truly unique RoRs). Once you fill all tiers you can recruit a Bloodline lord (instead of three like you can now, but the Bloodline Lords now have insanely powerful traits that partially work faction-wide on all your armies and settlements). Depending on the Bloodline you play, unlocking their respective segments and tiers can be cheaper and yield better effects...also after unlocking, some segments (like creating items and acillaries) are repeatable and will cost the 2nd time and onward money instead.
   
3. Ritual of The Liche. This one mechanic is much more unique. After you manage to level up your Necromancer Lord or Necromancer you can have them undergo such a ritual. Before that you can do it, you need to find a certain number of certain types of dark artifacts (which you get faster than you'd expect from battles, quests or events and each dark artifact grants you specific bonuses). When your Nercromancer or Necromancer Lord hits level 20 (Necro) or 30 (Necro Lord), then you select them for the ritual and selecting the artifacts you'd like to use, you start the ritual. The Necromancer or Necromancer Lord are removed for 10 turns from the game and after the time runs out, they come back as either a Liche or Liche Lord. They retain their original traits, yet at the same time they get new ones depending on the dark artifacts you use. These two get superior stats and additional traits along with extra new skills that makes them better magic power-houses (not to mention ramping up their raising capabilities and cutting down upkeep of Zombies and Skeleton to 0 like in the old times). You can make Kemmler and Ghorst undergo those (after hitting level 30 and collecting specific dark artifacts for each), without transforming them into Liches and which both gain very powerful and unique traits.

Tech Tree:

Agreed, the VCs lack a bit in the Bestiary department and should get extra researches here, I'd also add in research branches unique for each LL (both existing and future ones) that revolve thematically around them.

Would also mod the tech tree into new branches and add in new techs. One branch revolving around overall province management. Five branches revolving around each of the Bloodlines and where every branch would be expanded big time compared to what is currently (with research giving not only additional bonuses, but new traits to your regular units, RoRs even, as well as all lords and heroes). And finally one unique branch depending on the LL you play as that would be thematic.

Factions:

This would tie with the LLs and any potential LLs that would come. And since people expect the other Bloodlines to have their time and they should get something akin to a monogod treatment in certain aspects...

von Carstein: 

Should be a dark reflection of The Empire. Unlike the other factions, the von Carstein would use more than just Sylvanian Crossbowmen and Handgunners. In fact they'd start with an overall larger roster of State Troop at their disposition and once you advance with your conquest, you get access to things like Sylvanian Knights, Greatswords and even more advanced gunpowder units. This would also add to the von Carstein some extra versatility as well as staying power like mortal units do for the monogod factions.

Vlad and Isabella should have access to the same mechanics as Karl has, but with the addition of utilizing threats and other Vampiric manipulations.

Blood Dragons: 

Should be turbo-elite and with access to units they normally didn't have like Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds (and in case of Blood Knights, also ones on Abyssal Terrors to make them a VC version of Hippogryph Knights). Apart of Wights with Halberds for everyone, they'd have more Wight variants (dual-hand weapons, spear + shield), they'd have also Foot Blood Knights with various weapon loadouts. Blood Dragon factions would be murder on legs and nigh unstoppable in melee unless you have enough anti-armor magical ranged units or even better melee units than they have.

Abhorash (or Wallach, I prefer Abhorash because he didn't get anything awesome in End Times...another wasted potential here), should have a mechanic centered around challenging powerful warriors and monsters (with the choice of even turning the warriors into new Blood Dragon Lords).

Lahmians:

The espionage faction. Their mechanics would center around manipulating others into doing their jobs and spying heavily on their enemies. Neferata would also have more options to her disposition. Think of her as Cao-Cao mixed with HElf Intrigue mechanic and Eshin's Dark Dealings.

Would also come with unique Lahmian units (mortal Servants and vampiric Handmaidens) along with a select number of Tomb King units.

Necrarchs: 

Absolute Frankensteinian magical necromantic mayhem. Mechanics would be around magical experimentations and upgrading undead units (including their own unique ones). Unique units would be things like Undead Giants, Armored Zombies and far more insane units like a unit version of Patchwork Men. W'Soran/Melkior/Zacharias (all the same character) would have more unique options compared to other Necrarch factions + he would also go after the Books of Nagash, thus getting him into conflict with Mannfred.

Strigoi:

Unique Ghoul and monster units + Strigany mortals that give them a unique dynamic. THE vampiric skirmisher/heavy monster hitter faction. Ushoran would have a Strygos Resurgence mechanic centering on the restoration of Mourkain and the rebirth of the Strygos Empire. With fun decision and challenges that will test the hell out of your capabilities, yet the rewards are too tempting to not partake in.

Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst:

Overall these three get some of everything from the five + additional mechanics. 

Mannfred: 

Greatly expanded Books of Nagash where you also research the books leading to creating new items ala what Kairos has that allows you to use lore of Shadows and Lore of Nehekhara, gaining select units from the Tomb Kings, and much more.

Kemmler:

A mechanic that would allow him to empower himself and his Necromancers and Liches (like giving everyone bound spells from lore of Shadows and Death to Lore of Vampires characters and other combinations). The Lore of Vampires is empowered with a unique skill-tree in place of that where Krell's was. One that empowers it all to the point that it becomes the Lore of The Lichemaster in all but name as the more he unlocks skills from his unique skill-tree, the more potent his spells become and gain additional effects.

 Ghorst:

Zombie apocalypse cranked up to 11. Ability to drop Super Zombie Doomstacks everywhere. Everything that is fleshy or is labeled as a zombie? It can be empowered by him. All Corpse Carts and Mortis Engines gain new traits and abilities under him. Gets his Brothers Ghorst Cart reworked in order to have it gradually upgraded into with a Unholy Lodestone, a Warpfire Brazier and ultimately gain a version of it that has both of these along with a Mortis Engine effect.

New Units for all factions:

Patchwork Men (hero option, Frankenstein flesh constructs that can pass on as living and which can buff up certain undead)

Zombie Dragon (as in a unit)

Knockers (Zombie Miners with good armor-piercing and vanguard)

Wickerman (fiery construct made of wood and corpses)

Simulacra (not!Ushabti)

Barrow Kings (promoted to lord option, used to be part of the Barrow Legion but now are available to everyone)

Cairn Wraiths (Banshees are reworked into anti-character and anti-infantry units with a AoE that screws with LD, while the Cairn Wraith becomes the pure hero/lord hunter with some really nasty abilities...can be turned into a Hexwraith character by unlocking a Skeletal Steed)

Spirit Hosts (ghost version of Bats, but can only levitate over the ground instead of flying, insanely good at blocking cavalry)

Coven Throne (Lahmian Mortis Engine, but with focus on weakening the enemy and even Enthralling enemy units to your side)

Bat Swarms (even more irritating than normal Fell Bats)

​All sounds very good and worthy for Vampires considering they haven't been given new content in a while. Especially with the Lich that Necromancers can become, even their phrase: "Soon, I will become more powerful" hints at what they need to be almost on par with Vampires!

I dont have anything to add to what already seems like an extensive rework of the Midnight Aristocracy, Id just like to say that I fully support this and have been waiting for SOMETHING that will bring the Vampire Lords up to speed with the newer factions. I have a hard time wrapping my head around why CA keeps working on the most recently introduced factions while letting the older (WH I) factions languish in the past. 

​

BeuhMomentus#3349 wrote:
That bloodlines DLC would only have new mechanics for the new lords, leaving the old ones in the dust.

ToD reworked mechanics for older Dwarf and Empire LLs.

​

Ben1990#8909 wrote:

Lords:

Remove the generic Vampire Lord and Strigoi Ghoul King and replace them with the Bloodline Lords who are straight-up superior and much more fun. Rework the current generic Vampire Hero into a von Carstein one and add in four more vampire heroes from the other four bloodlines.

However make them also more powerful yet at the same time change the way you recruit them.

By that you take the Ice Court mechanic and change it into a Vampire Awakening mechanic where you spend either Blood Kisses. The more Blood Kisses you use the vampire awaken with more strong traits.

This also would make the player to use Necromancers and Necromancer Lords more often. This also would require the addition of a new generic lord option in the form of the Barrow Kings that would be promoted from heroes to lords option (and to differentiate them from Wight Kings).

Necromancer Lords get buffs to their skills. They should become the masters of instantly raising whole armies. Should also get a skill that further increases the percentage chance of raising a regiment. Not to mention giving them a price decrease to Lore of Vampires spells and buffs to raising zombies on the battlefield.

Mechanics:

Three in fact.

1. The Vampire Awakening mechanic mentioned earlier in order to balance out the fact that the Vampire Lords are Bloodline ones and that they are stronger. However to mitigate the fact that you have to pay for them with Blood Kisses, the very Blood Kisses will now appear much often and are tied to generic lords and heroes too. You get Blood Kisses from conquering settlements (the amount depends on the tier), slaying lords and heroes (the latter either in battle or via the Assassinate action), through specific rituals, diplomacy, any sabotage-related action against settlements and so on. The more you pay for a Vampire Lord's awakening the more traits he gets like Ice Witches do. This goes for Vampire Heroes too.
   
2. The Bloodlines mechanic is now expanded and enhanced. Every bloodline tier is now divided into three tiers with three segments each and you don't require to fill them all (just two) in order to advance to the next tier. However, filling out a segment gives you a small bonus and filling all segments in a tier gives you all the small bonuses from each segment along with a bonus from a filled-up tier. Tiers vary and they either give you a flat-out bonus or give you a smaller one while unlocking something for your use (from tactical spells for battlefield use, strategic rituals that give you things like Blood Kisses or buffs to certain elements of your empire, ability to produce items/ancillarie, to campaign-exclusive units and truly unique RoRs). Once you fill all tiers you can recruit a Bloodline lord (instead of three like you can now, but the Bloodline Lords now have insanely powerful traits that partially work faction-wide on all your armies and settlements). Depending on the Bloodline you play, unlocking their respective segments and tiers can be cheaper and yield better effects...also after unlocking, some segments (like creating items and acillaries) are repeatable and will cost the 2nd time and onward money instead.
   
3. Ritual of The Liche. This one mechanic is much more unique. After you manage to level up your Necromancer Lord or Necromancer you can have them undergo such a ritual. Before that you can do it, you need to find a certain number of certain types of dark artifacts (which you get faster than you'd expect from battles, quests or events and each dark artifact grants you specific bonuses). When your Nercromancer or Necromancer Lord hits level 20 (Necro) or 30 (Necro Lord), then you select them for the ritual and selecting the artifacts you'd like to use, you start the ritual. The Necromancer or Necromancer Lord are removed for 10 turns from the game and after the time runs out, they come back as either a Liche or Liche Lord. They retain their original traits, yet at the same time they get new ones depending on the dark artifacts you use. These two get superior stats and additional traits along with extra new skills that makes them better magic power-houses (not to mention ramping up their raising capabilities and cutting down upkeep of Zombies and Skeleton to 0 like in the old times). You can make Kemmler and Ghorst undergo those (after hitting level 30 and collecting specific dark artifacts for each), without transforming them into Liches and which both gain very powerful and unique traits.

Tech Tree:

Agreed, the VCs lack a bit in the Bestiary department and should get extra researches here, I'd also add in research branches unique for each LL (both existing and future ones) that revolve thematically around them.

Would also mod the tech tree into new branches and add in new techs. One branch revolving around overall province management. Five branches revolving around each of the Bloodlines and where every branch would be expanded big time compared to what is currently (with research giving not only additional bonuses, but new traits to your regular units, RoRs even, as well as all lords and heroes). And finally one unique branch depending on the LL you play as that would be thematic.

Factions:

This would tie with the LLs and any potential LLs that would come. And since people expect the other Bloodlines to have their time and they should get something akin to a monogod treatment in certain aspects...

von Carstein: 

Should be a dark reflection of The Empire. Unlike the other factions, the von Carstein would use more than just Sylvanian Crossbowmen and Handgunners. In fact they'd start with an overall larger roster of State Troop at their disposition and once you advance with your conquest, you get access to things like Sylvanian Knights, Greatswords and even more advanced gunpowder units. This would also add to the von Carstein some extra versatility as well as staying power like mortal units do for the monogod factions.

Vlad and Isabella should have access to the same mechanics as Karl has, but with the addition of utilizing threats and other Vampiric manipulations.

Blood Dragons: 

Should be turbo-elite and with access to units they normally didn't have like Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds (and in case of Blood Knights, also ones on Abyssal Terrors to make them a VC version of Hippogryph Knights). Apart of Wights with Halberds for everyone, they'd have more Wight variants (dual-hand weapons, spear + shield), they'd have also Foot Blood Knights with various weapon loadouts. Blood Dragon factions would be murder on legs and nigh unstoppable in melee unless you have enough anti-armor magical ranged units or even better melee units than they have.

Abhorash (or Wallach, I prefer Abhorash because he didn't get anything awesome in End Times...another wasted potential here), should have a mechanic centered around challenging powerful warriors and monsters (with the choice of even turning the warriors into new Blood Dragon Lords).

Lahmians:

The espionage faction. Their mechanics would center around manipulating others into doing their jobs and spying heavily on their enemies. Neferata would also have more options to her disposition. Think of her as Cao-Cao mixed with HElf Intrigue mechanic and Eshin's Dark Dealings.

Would also come with unique Lahmian units (mortal Servants and vampiric Handmaidens) along with a select number of Tomb King units.

Necrarchs: 

Absolute Frankensteinian magical necromantic mayhem. Mechanics would be around magical experimentations and upgrading undead units (including their own unique ones). Unique units would be things like Undead Giants, Armored Zombies and far more insane units like a unit version of Patchwork Men. W'Soran/Melkior/Zacharias (all the same character) would have more unique options compared to other Necrarch factions + he would also go after the Books of Nagash, thus getting him into conflict with Mannfred.

Strigoi:

Unique Ghoul and monster units + Strigany mortals that give them a unique dynamic. THE vampiric skirmisher/heavy monster hitter faction. Ushoran would have a Strygos Resurgence mechanic centering on the restoration of Mourkain and the rebirth of the Strygos Empire. With fun decision and challenges that will test the hell out of your capabilities, yet the rewards are too tempting to not partake in.

Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst:

Overall these three get some of everything from the five + additional mechanics. 

Mannfred: 

Greatly expanded Books of Nagash where you also research the books leading to creating new items ala what Kairos has that allows you to use lore of Shadows and Lore of Nehekhara, gaining select units from the Tomb Kings, and much more.

Kemmler:

A mechanic that would allow him to empower himself and his Necromancers and Liches (like giving everyone bound spells from lore of Shadows and Death to Lore of Vampires characters and other combinations). The Lore of Vampires is empowered with a unique skill-tree in place of that where Krell's was. One that empowers it all to the point that it becomes the Lore of The Lichemaster in all but name as the more he unlocks skills from his unique skill-tree, the more potent his spells become and gain additional effects.

 Ghorst:

Zombie apocalypse cranked up to 11. Ability to drop Super Zombie Doomstacks everywhere. Everything that is fleshy or is labeled as a zombie? It can be empowered by him. All Corpse Carts and Mortis Engines gain new traits and abilities under him. Gets his Brothers Ghorst Cart reworked in order to have it gradually upgraded into with a Unholy Lodestone, a Warpfire Brazier and ultimately gain a version of it that has both of these along with a Mortis Engine effect.

New Units for all factions:

Patchwork Men (hero option, Frankenstein flesh constructs that can pass on as living and which can buff up certain undead)

Zombie Dragon (as in a unit)

Knockers (Zombie Miners with good armor-piercing and vanguard)

Wickerman (fiery construct made of wood and corpses)

Simulacra (not!Ushabti)

Barrow Kings (promoted to lord option, used to be part of the Barrow Legion but now are available to everyone)

Cairn Wraiths (Banshees are reworked into anti-character and anti-infantry units with a AoE that screws with LD, while the Cairn Wraith becomes the pure hero/lord hunter with some really nasty abilities...can be turned into a Hexwraith character by unlocking a Skeletal Steed)

Spirit Hosts (ghost version of Bats, but can only levitate over the ground instead of flying, insanely good at blocking cavalry)

Coven Throne (Lahmian Mortis Engine, but with focus on weakening the enemy and even Enthralling enemy units to your side)

Bat Swarms (even more irritating than normal Fell Bats)

Great ideas, im especially a fan of the Liche one (though i would shorten the waiting time to like 5 turns). Also really hoping for a Wight lord myself, though not necesarily having to upgrade one.

​

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

​

BeuhMomentus#3349 wrote:
That bloodlines DLC would only have new mechanics for the new lords, leaving the old ones in the dust.

ToD reworked mechanics for older Dwarf and Empire LLs.

Yeah thats why im asking for the reworks, i think there was a slight misunderstanding

This is my standard response whenever this topic comes up again. 

"I acknowledge this will be an unpopular opinion with many, and an extremely unlikely idea, but my ideal, fantasy (heh) wishlist solution would be this;

The VC's need very little updating rosterwise, just a few pieces here and there. What they ARE missing is the number of incredible vampire characters that make up their lore. So, do a CoC style DLC (told you it was unlikely!) with almost no new units, but a number of fully modelled, voiced, Unique (semi Legendary) Lords unlocked by getting rid of the Bloodkiss mechanic and replacing it with scripted events. 

Let me explain. You have 3 LLs/ULs per Bloodline. 

von Carstein ; Vlad, Isabella and Mannfred 

Necrarch; W'soran, Melkior and Zacharias

Blood Dragons; Abhorash, Red Duke and Walach

Lahmian; Neferata (full LL as the face of the DLC), Naaima and Kahled al Muntasir/ Nitocris/ Kattarin of Kislev

Strigoi; Ushoran, Vorag and Gashnag

Just a few of these should be starting options- really, just the existing ones and a new, fully developed Neferata as the face of the DLC. Also, only a loreful few would be starting Factions on the map. All however would be unlockable as Unique Lords for all Vampire Counts LL's, in a variety of different, loreful ways, ranging in method, complexity and difficulty. A few examples;

- Build T5 Unique Landmarks like the Blood Keep or the Mourkain Throne Room to unlock Walach or Vorag. 

- Defeat Archaon, Grimgor AND Tyrion in battle, to spawn Abhorash's Rogue Faction that must be defeated to unlock him. 

- Give the Book of of Nagash collection mechanic to all LLs and unlock one of the Necrach elders for every 3 you get.*

- Confederate some Factions like Mousillion or the Silver Peak like usual. 

- etc etc.

We know (or at least we should) there is an upper limit to what we can reasonably expect from a single DLC- we aren't going to get half a dozen LL's, full mechanics AND a number of new units. But this idea focuses and expands on what I see as the most important part of the Vampire Counts race- the mighty Vampire Lords! Unlocking them all in a single campaign should be on parr with map painting- near enough impossible and just for completionists and Achievement hunters, instead making the player focus their campaign on which Lords they want most. 

A crazy idea I know, and one never likely to happen, but God it would make me happy!

*fun, silly Necrach idea.

Lore purists will correctly point out that the 3 Necrach elders shouldn't all exist at the same time as their narrative frequently implies that they are all Wsoran, eating his progeny. So, screw it and embrace the nonsense! Mix and match all their skills, items, voice lines and characteristics so it's unsure which one is actually which anyway as they keep eating each other and resurrecting and eating each other and resurrecting and eating each other over and over again until they have become a jumbled, cannibalistic, incestuous mess! Stupid? Very! Warhammer? VERY!

Final thought. 

No, I've got absolutely no idea how Kemmler and Ghorst would fit into all this."

​

SafironDracolich#6190 wrote:

​

Ben1990#8909 wrote:

Lords:

Remove the generic Vampire Lord and Strigoi Ghoul King and replace them with the Bloodline Lords who are straight-up superior and much more fun. Rework the current generic Vampire Hero into a von Carstein one and add in four more vampire heroes from the other four bloodlines.

However make them also more powerful yet at the same time change the way you recruit them.

By that you take the Ice Court mechanic and change it into a Vampire Awakening mechanic where you spend either Blood Kisses. The more Blood Kisses you use the vampire awaken with more strong traits.

This also would make the player to use Necromancers and Necromancer Lords more often. This also would require the addition of a new generic lord option in the form of the Barrow Kings that would be promoted from heroes to lords option (and to differentiate them from Wight Kings).

Necromancer Lords get buffs to their skills. They should become the masters of instantly raising whole armies. Should also get a skill that further increases the percentage chance of raising a regiment. Not to mention giving them a price decrease to Lore of Vampires spells and buffs to raising zombies on the battlefield.

Mechanics:

Three in fact.

1. The Vampire Awakening mechanic mentioned earlier in order to balance out the fact that the Vampire Lords are Bloodline ones and that they are stronger. However to mitigate the fact that you have to pay for them with Blood Kisses, the very Blood Kisses will now appear much often and are tied to generic lords and heroes too. You get Blood Kisses from conquering settlements (the amount depends on the tier), slaying lords and heroes (the latter either in battle or via the Assassinate action), through specific rituals, diplomacy, any sabotage-related action against settlements and so on. The more you pay for a Vampire Lord's awakening the more traits he gets like Ice Witches do. This goes for Vampire Heroes too.
   
2. The Bloodlines mechanic is now expanded and enhanced. Every bloodline tier is now divided into three tiers with three segments each and you don't require to fill them all (just two) in order to advance to the next tier. However, filling out a segment gives you a small bonus and filling all segments in a tier gives you all the small bonuses from each segment along with a bonus from a filled-up tier. Tiers vary and they either give you a flat-out bonus or give you a smaller one while unlocking something for your use (from tactical spells for battlefield use, strategic rituals that give you things like Blood Kisses or buffs to certain elements of your empire, ability to produce items/ancillarie, to campaign-exclusive units and truly unique RoRs). Once you fill all tiers you can recruit a Bloodline lord (instead of three like you can now, but the Bloodline Lords now have insanely powerful traits that partially work faction-wide on all your armies and settlements). Depending on the Bloodline you play, unlocking their respective segments and tiers can be cheaper and yield better effects...also after unlocking, some segments (like creating items and acillaries) are repeatable and will cost the 2nd time and onward money instead.
   
3. Ritual of The Liche. This one mechanic is much more unique. After you manage to level up your Necromancer Lord or Necromancer you can have them undergo such a ritual. Before that you can do it, you need to find a certain number of certain types of dark artifacts (which you get faster than you'd expect from battles, quests or events and each dark artifact grants you specific bonuses). When your Nercromancer or Necromancer Lord hits level 20 (Necro) or 30 (Necro Lord), then you select them for the ritual and selecting the artifacts you'd like to use, you start the ritual. The Necromancer or Necromancer Lord are removed for 10 turns from the game and after the time runs out, they come back as either a Liche or Liche Lord. They retain their original traits, yet at the same time they get new ones depending on the dark artifacts you use. These two get superior stats and additional traits along with extra new skills that makes them better magic power-houses (not to mention ramping up their raising capabilities and cutting down upkeep of Zombies and Skeleton to 0 like in the old times). You can make Kemmler and Ghorst undergo those (after hitting level 30 and collecting specific dark artifacts for each), without transforming them into Liches and which both gain very powerful and unique traits.

Tech Tree:

Agreed, the VCs lack a bit in the Bestiary department and should get extra researches here, I'd also add in research branches unique for each LL (both existing and future ones) that revolve thematically around them.

Would also mod the tech tree into new branches and add in new techs. One branch revolving around overall province management. Five branches revolving around each of the Bloodlines and where every branch would be expanded big time compared to what is currently (with research giving not only additional bonuses, but new traits to your regular units, RoRs even, as well as all lords and heroes). And finally one unique branch depending on the LL you play as that would be thematic.

Factions:

This would tie with the LLs and any potential LLs that would come. And since people expect the other Bloodlines to have their time and they should get something akin to a monogod treatment in certain aspects...

von Carstein: 

Should be a dark reflection of The Empire. Unlike the other factions, the von Carstein would use more than just Sylvanian Crossbowmen and Handgunners. In fact they'd start with an overall larger roster of State Troop at their disposition and once you advance with your conquest, you get access to things like Sylvanian Knights, Greatswords and even more advanced gunpowder units. This would also add to the von Carstein some extra versatility as well as staying power like mortal units do for the monogod factions.

Vlad and Isabella should have access to the same mechanics as Karl has, but with the addition of utilizing threats and other Vampiric manipulations.

Blood Dragons: 

Should be turbo-elite and with access to units they normally didn't have like Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds (and in case of Blood Knights, also ones on Abyssal Terrors to make them a VC version of Hippogryph Knights). Apart of Wights with Halberds for everyone, they'd have more Wight variants (dual-hand weapons, spear + shield), they'd have also Foot Blood Knights with various weapon loadouts. Blood Dragon factions would be murder on legs and nigh unstoppable in melee unless you have enough anti-armor magical ranged units or even better melee units than they have.

Abhorash (or Wallach, I prefer Abhorash because he didn't get anything awesome in End Times...another wasted potential here), should have a mechanic centered around challenging powerful warriors and monsters (with the choice of even turning the warriors into new Blood Dragon Lords).

Lahmians:

The espionage faction. Their mechanics would center around manipulating others into doing their jobs and spying heavily on their enemies. Neferata would also have more options to her disposition. Think of her as Cao-Cao mixed with HElf Intrigue mechanic and Eshin's Dark Dealings.

Would also come with unique Lahmian units (mortal Servants and vampiric Handmaidens) along with a select number of Tomb King units.

Necrarchs: 

Absolute Frankensteinian magical necromantic mayhem. Mechanics would be around magical experimentations and upgrading undead units (including their own unique ones). Unique units would be things like Undead Giants, Armored Zombies and far more insane units like a unit version of Patchwork Men. W'Soran/Melkior/Zacharias (all the same character) would have more unique options compared to other Necrarch factions + he would also go after the Books of Nagash, thus getting him into conflict with Mannfred.

Strigoi:

Unique Ghoul and monster units + Strigany mortals that give them a unique dynamic. THE vampiric skirmisher/heavy monster hitter faction. Ushoran would have a Strygos Resurgence mechanic centering on the restoration of Mourkain and the rebirth of the Strygos Empire. With fun decision and challenges that will test the hell out of your capabilities, yet the rewards are too tempting to not partake in.

Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst:

Overall these three get some of everything from the five + additional mechanics. 

Mannfred: 

Greatly expanded Books of Nagash where you also research the books leading to creating new items ala what Kairos has that allows you to use lore of Shadows and Lore of Nehekhara, gaining select units from the Tomb Kings, and much more.

Kemmler:

A mechanic that would allow him to empower himself and his Necromancers and Liches (like giving everyone bound spells from lore of Shadows and Death to Lore of Vampires characters and other combinations). The Lore of Vampires is empowered with a unique skill-tree in place of that where Krell's was. One that empowers it all to the point that it becomes the Lore of The Lichemaster in all but name as the more he unlocks skills from his unique skill-tree, the more potent his spells become and gain additional effects.

 Ghorst:

Zombie apocalypse cranked up to 11. Ability to drop Super Zombie Doomstacks everywhere. Everything that is fleshy or is labeled as a zombie? It can be empowered by him. All Corpse Carts and Mortis Engines gain new traits and abilities under him. Gets his Brothers Ghorst Cart reworked in order to have it gradually upgraded into with a Unholy Lodestone, a Warpfire Brazier and ultimately gain a version of it that has both of these along with a Mortis Engine effect.

New Units for all factions:

Patchwork Men (hero option, Frankenstein flesh constructs that can pass on as living and which can buff up certain undead)

Zombie Dragon (as in a unit)

Knockers (Zombie Miners with good armor-piercing and vanguard)

Wickerman (fiery construct made of wood and corpses)

Simulacra (not!Ushabti)

Barrow Kings (promoted to lord option, used to be part of the Barrow Legion but now are available to everyone)

Cairn Wraiths (Banshees are reworked into anti-character and anti-infantry units with a AoE that screws with LD, while the Cairn Wraith becomes the pure hero/lord hunter with some really nasty abilities...can be turned into a Hexwraith character by unlocking a Skeletal Steed)

Spirit Hosts (ghost version of Bats, but can only levitate over the ground instead of flying, insanely good at blocking cavalry)

Coven Throne (Lahmian Mortis Engine, but with focus on weakening the enemy and even Enthralling enemy units to your side)

Bat Swarms (even more irritating than normal Fell Bats)

​All sounds very good and worthy for Vampires considering they haven't been given new content in a while. Especially with the Lich that Necromancers can become, even their phrase: "Soon, I will become more powerful" hints at what they need to be almost on par with Vampires!

BeuhMomentus#3349 wrote:

​

Ben1990#8909 wrote:

Lords:

Remove the generic Vampire Lord and Strigoi Ghoul King and replace them with the Bloodline Lords who are straight-up superior and much more fun. Rework the current generic Vampire Hero into a von Carstein one and add in four more vampire heroes from the other four bloodlines.

However make them also more powerful yet at the same time change the way you recruit them.

By that you take the Ice Court mechanic and change it into a Vampire Awakening mechanic where you spend either Blood Kisses. The more Blood Kisses you use the vampire awaken with more strong traits.

This also would make the player to use Necromancers and Necromancer Lords more often. This also would require the addition of a new generic lord option in the form of the Barrow Kings that would be promoted from heroes to lords option (and to differentiate them from Wight Kings).

Necromancer Lords get buffs to their skills. They should become the masters of instantly raising whole armies. Should also get a skill that further increases the percentage chance of raising a regiment. Not to mention giving them a price decrease to Lore of Vampires spells and buffs to raising zombies on the battlefield.

Mechanics:

Three in fact.

1. The Vampire Awakening mechanic mentioned earlier in order to balance out the fact that the Vampire Lords are Bloodline ones and that they are stronger. However to mitigate the fact that you have to pay for them with Blood Kisses, the very Blood Kisses will now appear much often and are tied to generic lords and heroes too. You get Blood Kisses from conquering settlements (the amount depends on the tier), slaying lords and heroes (the latter either in battle or via the Assassinate action), through specific rituals, diplomacy, any sabotage-related action against settlements and so on. The more you pay for a Vampire Lord's awakening the more traits he gets like Ice Witches do. This goes for Vampire Heroes too.
   
2. The Bloodlines mechanic is now expanded and enhanced. Every bloodline tier is now divided into three tiers with three segments each and you don't require to fill them all (just two) in order to advance to the next tier. However, filling out a segment gives you a small bonus and filling all segments in a tier gives you all the small bonuses from each segment along with a bonus from a filled-up tier. Tiers vary and they either give you a flat-out bonus or give you a smaller one while unlocking something for your use (from tactical spells for battlefield use, strategic rituals that give you things like Blood Kisses or buffs to certain elements of your empire, ability to produce items/ancillarie, to campaign-exclusive units and truly unique RoRs). Once you fill all tiers you can recruit a Bloodline lord (instead of three like you can now, but the Bloodline Lords now have insanely powerful traits that partially work faction-wide on all your armies and settlements). Depending on the Bloodline you play, unlocking their respective segments and tiers can be cheaper and yield better effects...also after unlocking, some segments (like creating items and acillaries) are repeatable and will cost the 2nd time and onward money instead.
   
3. Ritual of The Liche. This one mechanic is much more unique. After you manage to level up your Necromancer Lord or Necromancer you can have them undergo such a ritual. Before that you can do it, you need to find a certain number of certain types of dark artifacts (which you get faster than you'd expect from battles, quests or events and each dark artifact grants you specific bonuses). When your Nercromancer or Necromancer Lord hits level 20 (Necro) or 30 (Necro Lord), then you select them for the ritual and selecting the artifacts you'd like to use, you start the ritual. The Necromancer or Necromancer Lord are removed for 10 turns from the game and after the time runs out, they come back as either a Liche or Liche Lord. They retain their original traits, yet at the same time they get new ones depending on the dark artifacts you use. These two get superior stats and additional traits along with extra new skills that makes them better magic power-houses (not to mention ramping up their raising capabilities and cutting down upkeep of Zombies and Skeleton to 0 like in the old times). You can make Kemmler and Ghorst undergo those (after hitting level 30 and collecting specific dark artifacts for each), without transforming them into Liches and which both gain very powerful and unique traits.

Tech Tree:

Agreed, the VCs lack a bit in the Bestiary department and should get extra researches here, I'd also add in research branches unique for each LL (both existing and future ones) that revolve thematically around them.

Would also mod the tech tree into new branches and add in new techs. One branch revolving around overall province management. Five branches revolving around each of the Bloodlines and where every branch would be expanded big time compared to what is currently (with research giving not only additional bonuses, but new traits to your regular units, RoRs even, as well as all lords and heroes). And finally one unique branch depending on the LL you play as that would be thematic.

Factions:

This would tie with the LLs and any potential LLs that would come. And since people expect the other Bloodlines to have their time and they should get something akin to a monogod treatment in certain aspects...

von Carstein: 

Should be a dark reflection of The Empire. Unlike the other factions, the von Carstein would use more than just Sylvanian Crossbowmen and Handgunners. In fact they'd start with an overall larger roster of State Troop at their disposition and once you advance with your conquest, you get access to things like Sylvanian Knights, Greatswords and even more advanced gunpowder units. This would also add to the von Carstein some extra versatility as well as staying power like mortal units do for the monogod factions.

Vlad and Isabella should have access to the same mechanics as Karl has, but with the addition of utilizing threats and other Vampiric manipulations.

Blood Dragons: 

Should be turbo-elite and with access to units they normally didn't have like Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds (and in case of Blood Knights, also ones on Abyssal Terrors to make them a VC version of Hippogryph Knights). Apart of Wights with Halberds for everyone, they'd have more Wight variants (dual-hand weapons, spear + shield), they'd have also Foot Blood Knights with various weapon loadouts. Blood Dragon factions would be murder on legs and nigh unstoppable in melee unless you have enough anti-armor magical ranged units or even better melee units than they have.

Abhorash (or Wallach, I prefer Abhorash because he didn't get anything awesome in End Times...another wasted potential here), should have a mechanic centered around challenging powerful warriors and monsters (with the choice of even turning the warriors into new Blood Dragon Lords).

Lahmians:

The espionage faction. Their mechanics would center around manipulating others into doing their jobs and spying heavily on their enemies. Neferata would also have more options to her disposition. Think of her as Cao-Cao mixed with HElf Intrigue mechanic and Eshin's Dark Dealings.

Would also come with unique Lahmian units (mortal Servants and vampiric Handmaidens) along with a select number of Tomb King units.

Necrarchs: 

Absolute Frankensteinian magical necromantic mayhem. Mechanics would be around magical experimentations and upgrading undead units (including their own unique ones). Unique units would be things like Undead Giants, Armored Zombies and far more insane units like a unit version of Patchwork Men. W'Soran/Melkior/Zacharias (all the same character) would have more unique options compared to other Necrarch factions + he would also go after the Books of Nagash, thus getting him into conflict with Mannfred.

Strigoi:

Unique Ghoul and monster units + Strigany mortals that give them a unique dynamic. THE vampiric skirmisher/heavy monster hitter faction. Ushoran would have a Strygos Resurgence mechanic centering on the restoration of Mourkain and the rebirth of the Strygos Empire. With fun decision and challenges that will test the hell out of your capabilities, yet the rewards are too tempting to not partake in.

Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst:

Overall these three get some of everything from the five + additional mechanics. 

Mannfred: 

Greatly expanded Books of Nagash where you also research the books leading to creating new items ala what Kairos has that allows you to use lore of Shadows and Lore of Nehekhara, gaining select units from the Tomb Kings, and much more.

Kemmler:

A mechanic that would allow him to empower himself and his Necromancers and Liches (like giving everyone bound spells from lore of Shadows and Death to Lore of Vampires characters and other combinations). The Lore of Vampires is empowered with a unique skill-tree in place of that where Krell's was. One that empowers it all to the point that it becomes the Lore of The Lichemaster in all but name as the more he unlocks skills from his unique skill-tree, the more potent his spells become and gain additional effects.

 Ghorst:

Zombie apocalypse cranked up to 11. Ability to drop Super Zombie Doomstacks everywhere. Everything that is fleshy or is labeled as a zombie? It can be empowered by him. All Corpse Carts and Mortis Engines gain new traits and abilities under him. Gets his Brothers Ghorst Cart reworked in order to have it gradually upgraded into with a Unholy Lodestone, a Warpfire Brazier and ultimately gain a version of it that has both of these along with a Mortis Engine effect.

New Units for all factions:

Patchwork Men (hero option, Frankenstein flesh constructs that can pass on as living and which can buff up certain undead)

Zombie Dragon (as in a unit)

Knockers (Zombie Miners with good armor-piercing and vanguard)

Wickerman (fiery construct made of wood and corpses)

Simulacra (not!Ushabti)

Barrow Kings (promoted to lord option, used to be part of the Barrow Legion but now are available to everyone)

Cairn Wraiths (Banshees are reworked into anti-character and anti-infantry units with a AoE that screws with LD, while the Cairn Wraith becomes the pure hero/lord hunter with some really nasty abilities...can be turned into a Hexwraith character by unlocking a Skeletal Steed)

Spirit Hosts (ghost version of Bats, but can only levitate over the ground instead of flying, insanely good at blocking cavalry)

Coven Throne (Lahmian Mortis Engine, but with focus on weakening the enemy and even Enthralling enemy units to your side)

Bat Swarms (even more irritating than normal Fell Bats)

Great ideas, im especially a fan of the Liche one (though i would shorten the waiting time to like 5 turns). Also really hoping for a Wight lord myself, though not necesarily having to upgrade one.

Aye. Tried to make them as cool as possible and expand them as much as possible.

Forgot to add to the Blood Kisses part that you could also get them via random events or dilemmas too.

Also forgot to make Krell into a genuine LH with his own skills and items. Same for adding Konrad.

Not to mention elaborating on Mannfred, Kemmler and Ghorst. In their case, apart of the new and improved mechanics, they would work the same way as current VC work but with a dash of Daniel (as in roster-wise, though dunno if they should have access to all the unique units or just some of them in order to have them represent the overall Vampire Counts instead of a specific bloodline).

​

SilverOak#8905 wrote:

This is my standard response whenever this topic comes up again. 

"I acknowledge this will be an unpopular opinion with many, and an extremely unlikely idea, but my ideal, fantasy (heh) wishlist solution would be this;

The VC's need very little updating rosterwise, just a few pieces here and there. What they ARE missing is the number of incredible vampire characters that make up their lore. So, do a CoC style DLC (told you it was unlikely!) with almost no new units, but a number of fully modelled, voiced, Unique (semi Legendary) Lords unlocked by getting rid of the Bloodkiss mechanic and replacing it with scripted events. 

Let me explain. You have 3 LLs/ULs per Bloodline. 

von Carstein ; Vlad, Isabella and Mannfred 

Necrarch; W'soran, Melkior and Zacharias

Blood Dragons; Abhorash, Red Duke and Walach

Lahmian; Neferata (full LL as the face of the DLC), Naaima and Kahled al Muntasir/ Nitocris/ Kattarin of Kislev

Strigoi; Ushoran, Vorag and Gashnag

Just a few of these should be starting options- really, just the existing ones and a new, fully developed Neferata as the face of the DLC. Also, only a loreful few would be starting Factions on the map. All however would be unlockable as Unique Lords for all Vampire Counts LL's, in a variety of different, loreful ways, ranging in method, complexity and difficulty. A few examples;

- Build T5 Unique Landmarks like the Blood Keep or the Mourkain Throne Room to unlock Walach or Vorag. 

- Defeat Archaon, Grimgor AND Tyrion in battle, to spawn Abhorash's Rogue Faction that must be defeated to unlock him. 

- Give the Book of of Nagash collection mechanic to all LLs and unlock one of the Necrach elders for every 3 you get.*

- Confederate some Factions like Mousillion or the Silver Peak like usual. 

- etc etc.

We know (or at least we should) there is an upper limit to what we can reasonably expect from a single DLC- we aren't going to get half a dozen LL's, full mechanics AND a number of new units. But this idea focuses and expands on what I see as the most important part of the Vampire Counts race- the mighty Vampire Lords! Unlocking them all in a single campaign should be on parr with map painting- near enough impossible and just for completionists and Achievement hunters, instead making the player focus their campaign on which Lords they want most. 

A crazy idea I know, and one never likely to happen, but God it would make me happy!

*fun, silly Necrach idea.

Lore purists will correctly point out that the 3 Necrach elders shouldn't all exist at the same time as their narrative frequently implies that they are all Wsoran, eating his progeny. So, screw it and embrace the nonsense! Mix and match all their skills, items, voice lines and characteristics so it's unsure which one is actually which anyway as they keep eating each other and resurrecting and eating each other and resurrecting and eating each other over and over again until they have become a jumbled, cannibalistic, incestuous mess! Stupid? Very! Warhammer? VERY!

Final thought. 

No, I've got absolutely no idea how Kemmler and Ghorst would fit into all this."

Ghorst, Kemmler and Mannlet should all be more like the jacks-of-all-trades while the Bloodlines would focus more on specific elements of their own.

Think of those three like what regular Vampire Counts are, but with a dash of Daniel in that they can recruit all generic lords, have access to at least some of the unique stuff each VC faction has and so on. + Their own unique stuff.