Then I decided that the Siege needs to be updated and that's what I think should be done:
1. Remove ladders for all infantry, shooters, heroes and lords. For let's be honest, in the presence of such free ladders, every time it kills any sense to take siege towers and that it would be good to remove these ladders by adding them to siege guns, which will be the cheapest choice for creating ladders. At the same time, making small animations for those who actually hold the stairs. For if it was in other games, then why not do it for Warhammer by making this update logical, right?;
2. Remove the ability to attack gates for cavalry, beasts, infantry, shooters, heroes and lords, except for large monsters that are capable of such things (like wargulfs, ogres, K'Dai and the like). Because to be honest, it looks wrong if the gate can demolish everything, but at the same time it will look ridiculous from the outside. And this is not to mention the fact that in a good way it would be necessary to add bonuses for rams that will give a reason to take them for a siege, since almost no one uses them;
3. The capture of the city can be carried out through the capture of control points for which it would be possible to give bonuses for captures and not only for the capture of the main point and the main point. For judge for yourself that it is somehow wrong if the cavalry, together with, relatively speaking, the dogs, capture the main points and then you are credited with victory, while the AI troops could still fight against you until the end until they almost run out of troops and you want long but savory siege battles;
4. Maybe these are small things, but at the same time I would like more atmosphere of the siege in terms of the destruction of a building or a fire that would give the desired color during sieges and then it would affect the campaign map with all its consequences;
5. And the last thing in my opinion, although these are also small things, but at the same time...It would be possible to return the symbols of the faction when you capture any points, be they walls, gates and streets.
In general, if you have something to add, I am waiting for comments so that the audience can see it and could make it in future updates!
Updated 10 days ago.
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To put it bluntly, CA need to fully understand that for some people, nothing they do with sieges will make those people enjoy them, because right now, they've tried to make the people who don't like them, be able to ignore them, but now the people who do like sieges aren't happy, and the ones that don't also still aren't happy.
A good start would probably be a toggle...saying something like sieges or no sieges, currently I would probably press no sieges. Since either you game them or they are a complete slog currently no matter if your attacking or defending.
Then decide if CA wants the quick fix or the real fix.
The quick fix is something like remove ladders or make them buildable, make it so the attacker only sees units on the walls until they enter the walls, make towers actually work aka deal a lot more damage enough to keep flyers out of the city (no deadspots, 360 or close to), make walls worth holding probably 30%+ spell and missile resistance as well as at least +12 Attack/Defense for the defender, remove buildables from the game the AI can't handle them and they are more of an annoyance than actually tactical, no siege attacker unless your giant sized or heavy artillery, no attacking gates unless your giant sized or a ram.
If they want to go with the real solution scrap the WH3 siege maps even bringing back the WH1-2 maps would be a great improvement. Then rebuild sieges from the beginning, take inspiration from Rome and Medieval games as well as real world sieges, make several new siege machines, make garrisons that you can select the units you want in them on some point system and dozens of other things.
Updated 10 days ago.
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A good start would probably be a toggle...saying something like sieges or no sieges, currently I would probably press no sieges. Since either you game them or they are a complete slog currently no matter if your attacking or defending.
Then decide if CA wants the quick fix or the real fix.
The quick fix is something like remove ladders or make them buildable, make it so the attacker only sees units on the walls until they enter the walls, make towers actually work aka deal a lot more damage enough to keep flyers out of the city, make walls worth holding probably 30%+ spell and missile resistance as well as at least +12 Attack/Defense for the defender, remove buildables from the game the AI can't handle them and they are more of an annoyance than actually tactical, no siege attacker unless your giant sized or heavy artillery, no attacking gates unless your giant sized or a ram.
If they want to go with the real solution scrap the WH3 siege maps and rebuild sieges from the beginning, take inspiration from Rome and Medieval games as well as real world sieges, make several new siege machines, make garrisons that you can select the units you want in them on some point system and dozens of other things.
I like your point of view, but regarding WH3 siege maps, it is rather necessary not to remove but to update at the same time to something similar to Rome or the Middle Ages to be better. When I look at the behavior of the AI at the appearance of obstacles, they break or avoid running here and there and in fact CA should really think about how best to improve Siege so that they are not annoying with its elements
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A good start would probably be a toggle...saying something like sieges or no sieges, currently I would probably press no sieges. Since either you game them or they are a complete slog currently no matter if your attacking or defending.
Then decide if CA wants the quick fix or the real fix.
The quick fix is something like remove ladders or make them buildable, make it so the attacker only sees units on the walls until they enter the walls, make towers actually work aka deal a lot more damage enough to keep flyers out of the city, make walls worth holding probably 30%+ spell and missile resistance as well as at least +12 Attack/Defense for the defender, remove buildables from the game the AI can't handle them and they are more of an annoyance than actually tactical, no siege attacker unless your giant sized or heavy artillery, no attacking gates unless your giant sized or a ram.
If they want to go with the real solution scrap the WH3 siege maps and rebuild sieges from the beginning, take inspiration from Rome and Medieval games as well as real world sieges, make several new siege machines, make garrisons that you can select the units you want in them on some point system and dozens of other things.
I like your point of view, but regarding WH3 siege maps, it is rather necessary not to remove but to update at the same time to something similar to Rome or the Middle Ages to be better. When I look at the behavior of the AI at the appearance of obstacles, they break or avoid running here and there and in fact CA should really think about how best to improve Siege so that they are not annoying with its elements
Personally I don't think WH3 siege maps are completely salvageable they are very pretty but many of them require a minimum of 40 units to be defensible, ideally the attacker should have 40 units and the defender much less and still be able to have a decent fight. Also all the damned deadspots where you can assault entirely without having to face wall towers or even force the enemy into a deeply disadvantageous position by assaulting the right corner or something of the map. They are too big, to poorly defensible and there is too much clutter in the way for ranged attacks of all kinds especially the defensive kind.
Updated 10 days ago.
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First, a toggle, because I cannot trust CA wouldn't make the game unbearable again.
Second, remove the obstructions and Tower defense elements, I'm sorry they are the complete opposite of fun, glitchy, buggy, boring, and simply unnecessary.
Third, complete rework of the town/city maps, and everything should have a wall. Minor Settlements being these stupid maze-like poorly functional funnels just isnt it. Multiple layers of walls, gates, and the ability to navigate the maps, is what actually matters.
Fourth, complete rework of the garrisons. If you are fighting over a provincial capital, it should feel like it.
Fifth, Faction capitals need unique maps.
Battles should never be about gimmicks, the nukes, the 'unique army ability' stuff, all that is just flash, no substance.
It should be about the units, walls, and mobility/choke points. Not obstacles and god forsaken straw towers.
I agree with pretty much everything your post. Just have to shout out extra for multiple layered walls, that used to be awesome and should be a part of any high tier settlement.
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A good start would probably be a toggle...saying something like sieges or no sieges, currently I would probably press no sieges. Since either you game them or they are a complete slog currently no matter if your attacking or defending.
Then decide if CA wants the quick fix or the real fix.
The quick fix is something like remove ladders or make them buildable, make it so the attacker only sees units on the walls until they enter the walls, make towers actually work aka deal a lot more damage enough to keep flyers out of the city, make walls worth holding probably 30%+ spell and missile resistance as well as at least +12 Attack/Defense for the defender, remove buildables from the game the AI can't handle them and they are more of an annoyance than actually tactical, no siege attacker unless your giant sized or heavy artillery, no attacking gates unless your giant sized or a ram.
If they want to go with the real solution scrap the WH3 siege maps and rebuild sieges from the beginning, take inspiration from Rome and Medieval games as well as real world sieges, make several new siege machines, make garrisons that you can select the units you want in them on some point system and dozens of other things.
I like your point of view, but regarding WH3 siege maps, it is rather necessary not to remove but to update at the same time to something similar to Rome or the Middle Ages to be better. When I look at the behavior of the AI at the appearance of obstacles, they break or avoid running here and there and in fact CA should really think about how best to improve Siege so that they are not annoying with its elements
Personally I don't think WH3 siege maps are completely salvageable they are very pretty but many of them require a minimum of 40 units to be defensible, ideally the attacker should have 40 units and the defender much less and still be able to have a decent fight. Also all the damned deadspots where you can assault entirely without having to face wall towers or even force the enemy into a deeply disadvantageous position by assaulting the right corner or something of the map. They are too big, to poorly defensible and there is too much clutter in the way for ranged attacks of all kinds especially the defensive kind.
To be honest, it is better to replace these straw towers on something worthwhile as well as the same brigades that are not shibko directly so much needed, as a big role should play walls and special places of maps from which will be fired by shooters and artillery is exactly such places cause a great association with the siege and tactical points play a role in the plan of defense
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First, a toggle, because I cannot trust CA wouldn't make the game unbearable again.
Second, remove the obstructions and Tower defense elements, I'm sorry they are the complete opposite of fun, glitchy, buggy, boring, and simply unnecessary.
Third, complete rework of the town/city maps, and everything should have a wall. Minor Settlements being these stupid maze-like poorly functional funnels just isnt it. Multiple layers of walls, gates, and the ability to navigate the maps, is what actually matters.
Fourth, complete rework of the garrisons. If you are fighting over a provincial capital, it should feel like it.
Fifth, Faction capitals need unique maps.
Battles should never be about gimmicks, the nukes, the 'unique army ability' stuff, all that is just flash, no substance.
It should be about the units, walls, and mobility/choke points. Not obstacles and god forsaken straw towers.
I agree with you, as much because it is nice to play a siege when there are all the enemy armies that are in the vicinity and at the same time, as I said earlier, it is better to replace these elements of Tower defense to something really worthwhile to best make sieges more interesting than boring. The same sieges for small settlements, for if there are walls, then it is necessary to make battles not on the fields and on the same settlement with walls to make much more sense. The battlefield only makes sense if you fight somewhere close to the settlement, not when you fight for the settlement.
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1. Option in configuration: Towers/Barricade only during deploy phase, but with more resources to have more since you can't accumulate resource to have more.
2. Instead of upgrading all the towers at once, make them unlock with levels, and then you need resource points to man them with proper equipment. Let say a city has 10 towers. City tier I only has towers level 1. At tier 3, the city can have tower level 1, 2 or 3 (but not 4). However, you have to spend resource points, and so maybe you can have 6 towers level 2, and 4 level 1, or 2 tower level 3, 3 level 2 and 5 level 1.
3. Resource pool shared between wall towers, small towers and barricade.
4. Deployable with race specific graphics.
5. Reduce building damage for most units (lance should do very little damage to a gate, an axe can do damage).
6. Give an area damage effect on units on wall, against units on ladder (let say they are throwing stones, pushing the ladders, etc). In an ideal world, we'd have nice little animations for that, but it's not reallistic to ask for them. So just the effect could be enough. This would make assaulting the walls with lader more dangerous, to make siege tower / ram more useful.
7. Add ladder as buildable equipment, same as siege tower / ram. They could be build relatively faster, but still you need one turn to get 5 of them for example. It may be too much work to create carrying animation for them, so I'm OK if they are hidden and "magically" appear when they reach the wall. But a unit which is carrying these virtual ladders should be smaller (and thus more vulnerable to attack from wall), and when the unit reaches the wall, and the ladder is deployable, the speed penalty is removed.
8. Add more siege maps, for more variety. Ideally, make them based on city level. A city level 1 should be a small village wtih some buildings, with a few streets than you can try to block with spearmen, a city level 3 can be what we currently have. Rome 2 cities were good for that.
9. When attacking a city, if you attack the first turn, there is a chance to have a land battle instead of a siege. If you defend from a siege, and decide to attack the besieger the first turn, the same. After one full turn (including defender) , then the battle is a siege. Random chance can vary with city defense, maybe a skill (like ligthing strike).
1. Defensive supplies to purchase troops in a siege battle based on what you can recruit in the province instead of the pre built armies.
2. Units rout to your main control point instead of wherever.
3. No more pocket ladders they become buildable instead in the pre siege battle menu.
4. Only artillery and units with siege attacker can damage gates.
There's a fundamental issue with most siege battle maps in that they are horribly designed for the player and favor the attacker most of the time. An example of this is the Cathay siege battle map where every single control point has multiple points of entry with one of the main ones having 7 points of entry. A good example of a siege map is the Empire Fort siege map. Can't tell you how many times Helmgart saved me from a Grom invasion.
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A good example of a siege map is the Empire Fort siege map. Can't tell you how many times Helmgart saved me from a Grom invasion.
The Empire Fort siege map is probably the only siege map which makes sense and gives a distinct advantage even when seriously outnumbered but even there abandoning the walls is usually the right way to go about it....
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Ladders could go into the tower siege purchase; If you build a siege tower (which gives you two in battle) it could bring a ladder with so you would get 2 siege towers and a ladder. The thing is if they can do that, IMO ladders should remove the hidden attribute while you are carrying them, preventing the player to concentrate the full army on one side and letting the stalk unit (shadows from the dark elves for example) so that they can capture everything for free... OR just giving the ladder to that unit but making them a little bit slower (not much like the siege tower), something like 3-5 flat reduced speed.
1. Fix Gates - it's unbelievable to me that to this day gates are still so broken and buggy in Total War. I'm talking about the bug where you have units attacking gates and the gate opens, trapping part of your unit inside (or whole single entity). Also seen where this bug happens and a single entity gets trapped inside the actual gate and become unresponsive. An easy fix for this would be to just not let the gates be opened whilst they are under attack.
2. Ladders - make ladders a constructable in the pre siege screen, maybe 4 ladders for the cost of 1 ram. Add carrying animations and stop letting lords set up leads of ladders by themselves (never made any sense a single character pulling four ladders out).
3. Special climbers - with ladders removed from normal infantry, I would give certain infantry and lords the ability to scale walls/use grappling hooks. The units I had in mind for this are stealth specialist units such as Assassins, Gutter Runners, Night Runners, Eshin Triads, Shadow Warriors, Deepwood Scouts, Shades (generally units in this vein).
4. Towers update - towers are barely consequential as is, I would change the way they work so that they are all always considered owned by the defending faction (until the attackers capture the point). To keep the capture points relevant though I would nerf all towers fire rates (and maybe range) and then give them a buff when the capture point is occupied by the defending faction. Also to account for point 4 I would have towers reveal stalking/hidden units within a certain range, which would let them sneak close without taking too much damage but at least reveal them for the defender so that they can adjust their defence accordingly.
5. Siege Attacker Trait - Only units that actually have trait should actually be allowed to attack gates, there's nothing more immersion breaking that having a unit of hounds chew through an iron wrought gate.
6. Routing units - defending units that route should go the the main control point unless broken.
7. Fix pathing - self explanatory, fix unit pathing on siege maps, have units path to the nearest route through the wall (alternately units only climb ladders if actually commanded to). Fix pathing on corners in siege maps (no more units clumping up and getting stuck in a weird whirlwind on corners).
The problem is that CA IMO doesn't want/can't fix sieges. It's been years and WH3 wasn't an improvement. Like... building towers during sieges is like a core feature.
It's like RoC campaign, you may not like it, but it was intented that way and it stayed exactly *that* way.
RuOne#4844 wrote: 1. Fix Gates - it's unbelievable to me that to this day gates are still so broken and buggy in Total War. I'm talking about the bug where you have units attacking gates and the gate opens, trapping part of your unit inside (or whole single entity). Also seen where this bug happens and a single entity gets trapped inside the actual gate and become unresponsive. An easy fix for this would be to just not let the gates be opened whilst they are under attack.
One of the recent patches upped the health of gates considerably. As in, there's no point in attacking them with anything but units that can destroy walls because they won't get the gates down before the battle is over.
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RuOne#4844 wrote: 1. Fix Gates - it's unbelievable to me that to this day gates are still so broken and buggy in Total War. I'm talking about the bug where you have units attacking gates and the gate opens, trapping part of your unit inside (or whole single entity). Also seen where this bug happens and a single entity gets trapped inside the actual gate and become unresponsive. An easy fix for this would be to just not let the gates be opened whilst they are under attack.
One of the recent patches upped the health of gates considerably. As in, there's no point in attacking them with anything but units that can destroy walls because they won't get the gates down before the battle is over.
I guess that is true. Still kinda daft that you could given enough time have a unit of hounds chew through a door. Also doesn't solve the main issue with gates which is that they are a buggy mess.
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