​​​I'll admit, that that may seem like a bit of a clickbaity title, but I do think that this is going to be a bit of an all around discussion about Norsca and what could and should possibly done to update and make them better.

I mean, I do think that Norsca as they stand now could just use a nice lord pack sized DLC dedicated solely to them, something like

At least 2 if not 3 LLs

1 or 2 possible new Hs or LHs

12 New Units

A FLC LL or LH

And some nice nice big patch that mostly focuses on reworking and improving them as a race.

I really think that that would be enough to bring Norsca up to the standards of a full race in Warhammer 3 terms.

Now, I think that that might be enough for a thread's OP, but I do think that there's more to talk about when it comes to Norsca than purely what they should get in a DLC and such, like how there's more than could've been done with them than them just being purely chaos worshipers or the occasional mercenary band.

I'll go into greater detail in the first comment, so don't forget to look at it.

I bring that subject up because I've heard from both lore videos and a few other people here and there over the years, that there's apparently a bit more to the Norscans than simply nothing but lackeys of the chaos gods. Because from what I understand, not all Norscans are strictly chaos worshipers. In fact, I remember someone bringing up years ago a novel or some sort of story that actually had to do with a tribe of Norscans who tried to invade Bretonnia and the tribe had nothing to do with the chaos gods, and their chieftain only turned to the chaos gods when the final battle was all but lost and they still lost the battle.

Now, I'm not saying that the GW lore writers should've made half the Norscan tribes anti chaos or that they should write up like 20 or more named characters from Norsca who are all perfect boy scouts who do no wrong, but I do think that they could've just done a bit more with them than simply being the marauder infantry units, and maybe we could've gotten a couple of characters from Norsca that weren't chaos aliened, and maybe a few flavorful auxiliary units for certain factions here and there.

But I will say that I think the non chaotic Norscans could certainly be similar to what groups like the Beastmen of Ind could possibly be like, in that they try to be overall good people and all because they simply want to be everything that the followers of the chaos gods aren't. And maybe some tribes actually tried to migrate and even managed to settle in some lands after they've proving themselves.

Because I personally think that it'd have been pretty cool to have possibly gotten a Harald Hardrada inspired Norscan character for the DoW, who either leads a famous warband or army of well equipped Norscan mercenaries based on the legendary Jomsvikings. That'd be pretty awesome in my book.

But there's so much that could've been done with the non chaotic Norscans, from both a lore and game perspective. But I'll just get into what could've been done with them in the first comment, so it's a little easier for people to read.

​​Bretonnia

I think that the non chaotic Norscans could have some possibly interesting interactions if any of them managed to settle down in Bretonnia, at least from a lore perspective.

I would think that while the Bretonnian nobles hate the idea of hiring mercenaries, you know, due to their desire for knightly glory and all that, they're not stupid enough to not understand that their armies are mostly made up of cavalry and not the most high quality infantry, which are usually needed to besiege fortresses and hold their line so they can actually do their glorious charges and such. And that's where the non chaotic Norscans could kind of come in.

I would think that any groups of Norscans that managed to settle in Bretonnia were viewed as mostly foreign mercenaries that just so happen to live in Bretonnia, with the higher up nobles not really liking them that much, but generally tolerate them because they make for reliable garrison troops for mountain castles and such, the one place where their knights aren't quite as useful or willing to go to. 

And while the peasants originally distrusted them to say the least, they've actually come to appreciate their presence, as they ironically ends up being more chivalrous than their knightly overlords by being far more likely to react to attacks on their villages. 

Now, I don't think they'd have to go and turn the non chaotic Norscans who might have settled in Bretonnia into full Norman Knights and all that, they could've just been reliable auxiliary units, but I do think think it would just be funny to see some stuff like "Norscan Warriors" or whatever they'd be called have Bretonnian heraldry on their shields and such.

Empire​

I think that it'd probably be a pretty similar situation to how the non chaotic Norscans might be treated in Bretonnia, though a little different.

I could see many non chaotic Norscans who could've mainly settled in more northern Empire provinces like Nordland and Middenland becoming rather ardent adherents of the Empire's gods, as they were all too eager to worship anything but the chaos gods. And they could've gone from foreign mercenaries to reliable auxiliary units, maybe even forming warrior orders for certain gods that aren't as represented.

And while I wouldn't say there should be a Norscan Elector Count, but maybe they could make a minor character that's Boris Todbringer's captain of the guard/champion equivalent of what Ludwig Schwarzhelm is to Karl Franz, but he's a Norscan warrior who's proven himself to Todbringer, and he's a ardent follower of Ulric to boot.

Kislev​

I would think that the relationship between the Kislevites and non chaotic Norscans would be far more amicable and even respectful than their initial interactions with the people of the Empire and Bretonnia.

I would say that because of where the Kislevites know where their ancestors come from, as in the fact that the Gospodars at least were once a northern tribe themselves and probably migrated south west into Kislev to most likely try get away from the other tribes who had become full on chaos worshipers, those that became the Kurgan and Hung. And because of that, they can relate to those Norscans who have proven they're not worshipers of the chaos gods.

And similarly to how they might be in the Empire, I would say those Norscans who settled in Kislev would probably become ardent adherents of Kislev's gods, and maybe even forming groups of warriors devoted them, which could in some ways give reference to a few famous types of warriors from historical Norse/Vikings. It could be like

Warriors of Ursun = Berserkers (maybe with axe and shield)

Warriors of Ulric = Ulfhednar (aka these guys)

Now, I don't know what kind of warriors and such they could do for Dazh or Tor, but I'm sure they could probably at least have them be followers of those Kislevite gods as well.

Norse Dwarfs​

I think that the relationship between the Norse Dwarfs and non chaotic Norscans could probably be pretty similar to how Kislev interacts with them.

And I just think that the non chaotic Norscans could've been a nice way to give some flavorful auxiliary units to the Dwarfs back in the TT and all, as a way to have some supplement rules for somewhat thematic Norse Dwarf armies.

I just think that in the lore, the Norse Dwarfs were originally incredibly distrusting of these Norscans, as they originally viewed them as just another bunch of savage northmen who just so happened to desire to fight against their chaos worshipping kin, but through the course of a few battles, they came to realize that these supposed savages were actually honorable warriors who were fiercely anti chaos.

Maybe the Norse dwarfs might've have started out by simply treating them as useful enough mercenaries to at least bolster their numbers in battle, who just so happened to live in the areas around their holds.

But I could see the biggest turning point being back when Thorgard Cromson was still but a dwarf prince, that a great battle against a large chaos horde where the the army of Kraka Drak was joined by a force of 5,000-6,000 non chaotic Norscans. And while they accept their aid, the dwarfs had stationed some reserve units behind the Norse contingent, just in case they betrayed them.

Now, the long and short of it was that the battle was hard fought, but the stalwart dwarfs had once again saw off the vile hordes of chaos. But their allied Norscans had been mauled. Out of the roughly 6,000 warriors they had brought to the battle, just over 2,000 remained.

The dwarfs were actually quite impressed they had held the line with a fierce stubbornness that even rivaled their own, and they were far less well equipped than the more uniformed dwarfs.

I just think that they could probably have have resulted in the non chaotic Norscans going from merely mercenaries to actual allies, which could result in some Norscan units that are far more well equipped than the majority of their chaotic cousins. Maybe they'd be like Norscan Warriors who wear fine mail armor and elite Huscarls who even wear some of plate armor.

Tilea and the Border Princes​

I would think that this would probably be one of the simplest things the non chaotic Norscans would do. And that is that many of them choose to simply work as mercenaries. And I think that they could probably be very common in the lands of the Tilea and the Border Princes.

I think in terms of units, the Norscan mercenary units could range from

Norscan Warriors/Raiders: Your basic Norscan warriors who come in axe and shield and spear and shield variants, both of which throw basic javelins before they charge.

Norscan "Veterans/Reavers": More experienced and well equipped Norscan warriors who come in axe or sword and shield and spear and shield variants, who also throw a volley of javelins or throwing axes before they charge.

Norscan Huscarls: Elite Norscan warriors who are both well armed and armored and come in a sword, spear, and shield and great axe variants, bot of which throw heavy javelins before they charge.

And I know, Norse/Anglo Saxon Huscarls were household troops and not normally mercenaries, but I just thought the name sounds cool for an elite unit. And I mention the whole precursor javelins thing because I would think that the non chaotic Norscans would be all too aware that they're probably not going to have access to tons of creatures they can tame and all that in the more southern lands, so they need to make up for some of that in other ways.

Estalia​

I think that what could make some of the non chaotic Norscans in Estalia is different from Tilea and the Border Princes could be in how Estalia could be portrayed in the lore.

Personally, I think that they could totally go for the whole Habsburg pike and shot era Spain thing, but I think that they could still incorporate mercenaries into their armies, and I think that one things they could possible do is to have formed an elite group of Norscan warriors who became known as the Varangian Guard.

And I know, I know, there's no real Warhammer equivalent to the Byzantine Empire, but I do feel like it could just be a nice flavor unit to spice up things for the Estalians or something, you know, add a little old school flare to their pike and shot style armies.

And to be completely honest, I was originally thought of maybe giving Lorenzo Lupo an elite RoR of very well equipped Norscan warriors and calling them the Varangian Guard, to kind of go with his love of the whole ancient Tilean stuff, and maybe have them be a little nod to the Byzantines, but I just thought that such an idea could work better when mixed with the pike and shot stuff that Estalia is kind of based off of.

But either way, I would say that the Varangian Guard should be a very well equipped force of Norscans, either finally having the weapon switching mechanic from Troy and Pharaoh or just having a few variants, I would much prefer the former. I would say that if they're just a single unit or unit type, they should be an elite infantry unit armed with spears and strong shields who can switch to two handed axes, and maybe even having a precursor attack in the form of heavy javelins that are very much like Roman Pila.

But I just think that it'd be really cool for the Estalians to have some stuff that makes them feel more like a kingdom instead of just a bunch of warring city states that Tilea and the Border Princes are.

I'm sorry I didn't say this in the OP, but I just wanted to say sorry that the OP and first comment are as long as they are, it's just not as easy to be concise as people may think. It's actually pretty hard to say a lot with as few words as reasonably possible.

I just wanted to talk about how much more could've been done with the Norscans than just being another chaos faction, as that does get a little boring after a while, and I'd just prefer to have more options to play around with when they were translated to the TW games.

And I will reiterate, that making a character or group mostly good guys isn't the same thing as making them a bunch of white knight Mary Sues who have no flaws, and I would dare say that the people who assume they are the same thing are the same sort of people who will end up making some generic edge lord character or whatever.

I'm just saying that if the lore writers put the effort into even somewhat carefully writing the non chaotic Norscans, they could make them work as well as any other minor faction and so on in the lore.

With Norsca passing WoC as the race that has gone the longest without content, I do hope that CA makes that long wait worth it. But I'm not really holding my breath

No interest in non-Chaos Norscan Factions.

Hope to at least get Mortkin and Sayl as LLs.

Sayl and Nightmaw as DLC. Lord Mortkin as a proper Norsca LL as FLC. Wulfrik moved to Skeggi. 

Perfection. 

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Captain_Rex#1635 wrote:

Sayl and Nightmaw as DLC. Lord Mortkin as a proper Norsca LL as FLC. Wulfrik moved to Skeggi. 

Perfection. 

+1

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

I honestly don't even think there are any "non-chaos" Norscan tribes in the current lore anyway. Just "less chaos" ones. Adella and Skeggi seem like they would be the closest to that, and even they still serve chaos and raid, just trade a bit as well.

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MODIDDLY1#9212 wrote:

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

I honestly don't even think there are any "non-chaos" Norscan tribes in the current lore anyway. Just "less chaos" ones. Adella and Skeggi seem like they would be the closest to that, and even they still serve chaos and raid, just trade a bit as well.

Yeah, closest one is probably the Bjornling though who worship the Chaos Gods along with other Gods and abhor mutation. Aranessa Saltspite being literally chucked off a cliff because she was a mutant. 

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MODIDDLY1#9212 wrote:

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

I honestly don't even think there are any "non-chaos" Norscan tribes in the current lore anyway. Just "less chaos" ones. Adella and Skeggi seem like they would be the closest to that, and even they still serve chaos and raid, just trade a bit as well.

True, honestly I find it way more interesting this way, it adds layers instead of it being "totally chaos vs totally order". I find it weird but charming that chaos followers and non chaos followers can kind of coexist, just like gnoblars and humans in Pigbarter.

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:
True, honestly I find it way more interesting this way, it adds layers instead of it being "totally chaos vs totally order".

If CA was going to add layers to Norsca, I'd prefer Kurgan and Hung layers over 'non-Chaos Norscan' layers.

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

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MODIDDLY1#9212 wrote:

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

I honestly don't even think there are any "non-chaos" Norscan tribes in the current lore anyway. Just "less chaos" ones. Adella and Skeggi seem like they would be the closest to that, and even they still serve chaos and raid, just trade a bit as well.

True, honestly I find it way more interesting this way, it adds layers instead of it being "totally chaos vs totally order". I find it weird but charming that chaos followers and non chaos followers can kind of coexist, just like gnoblars and humans in Pigbarter.

Agreed. Having variability to how Chaos Worshippers approach Chaos Worship is a lot better than just chucking in an order-aligned version of a Chaos thing. 

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MODIDDLY1#9212 wrote:

With Norsca passing WoC as the race that has gone the longest without content, I do hope that CA makes that long wait worth it. But I'm not really holding my breath

I do wish that GW and Sega would just allow CA to keep making a lot more DLCs for a while, because like I said in the OP, I think all Norsca needs is a nice DLC and patch mostly devoted specifically to them and they'd probably be good.

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DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

No interest in non-Chaos Norscan Factions.

Hope to at least get Mortkin and Sayl as LLs.

Meh, I was more so thinking about them being more so flavorful auxiliary units for some factions rather than a bunch of non chaotic sub factions.

Though I will say that Mortkin is probably the only LL choice for a Norscan sub faction that has a choice to either server or fight against the chaos factions as whole, as he literally forsook them after he got his revenge against the Empire.

I think Mortkin would work really well as a sort of Norscan/DoW hybrid faction that has a major choice as to whether or not his faction will serve or fight against the chaos factions.

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Captain_Rex#1635 wrote:

Sayl and Nightmaw as DLC. Lord Mortkin as a proper Norsca LL as FLC. Wulfrik moved to Skeggi. 

Perfection. 

While I do agree that Wulfrik being moved to Skeggi would be a fairly good thing, I don't know about Mortkin, as he's not exactly in the dark gods' favor as he forsook them after getting his revenge on the Empire for his home village being burned down.

I just think he's one character who could actually bring a pretty unique playstyle to a Norscan sub faction that isn't just monsters, monsters, and more monsters. Because at this point, I would just much prefer for more unique sub factions rather than just ones that aren't much more than a single mechanic difference.

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Captain_Rex#1635 wrote:

Sayl and Nightmaw as DLC. Lord Mortkin as a proper Norsca LL as FLC. Wulfrik moved to Skeggi. 

Perfection. 

Switch Mortkin and Sayl as DLC/FLC respectively and it's a deal.

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:

Not a fan of non-chaotic norscans, but the souther tribes are indeed not fanatical enough as to be able to make diplomacy and trade with order factions.

I know there's not a ton of lore and such about them, but I just think that since anyone did bother to have not all of them being strictly followers of the dark gods, I just think it could've been fleshed out a bit more.

And I think they could've even worked in some stuff into the lore, things like how the tribes that were not really for chaos were force to either migrate or die a somewhat slow death at the hands of all the chaos worshipping tribes around them, and many of them chose to migrate rather than face certain death.

And I do think that even if the non chaos Norscans were simply represented as being very common mercenaries, with maybe a few extra lore bits here and there, then that might be enough for some nice flavorful units or something.

I'd rather more important races get content. 

Oof, if only "important" races should get content, that would pretty much just be Empire, WoC, Dwarves, Greenskins, and Skaven... which is pretty much what GW did. Don't imagine that would be good for the game.