The latest DLC has dealt heavily with themes, whether it's the Tamurkhan book, Nuln or slayers, and a lot of players seem very keen with the idea of devoting DLC to a dedicated theme. However, there are limited lords left for some factions and it can be too late to explore some themes. What I'm curious about is whether you would want CA to go a step further and use Lord Pack DLC to establish sub-races on the map, but first I should explain what I mean with a rough example:

* * * * * *

Example Subrace:- Amazons

Example Legendary Lord: Anakonda

Example Lore of Magic: Lore of the Serpent

Example Heroes/Lords: Serpent Priestess (Spellcaster, Serpent Lore), Koka-Kalim (Melee)

Example Units: Tribeswomen, Skink Hunters, Eagle Warriors, Jaguar Warriors, Pirahna Warriors, Berserkers, Cold One Riders, etc.

The Amazons would be a subrace of the Lizardmen race. They would access most of their monstrous units, but the Amazons themselves would replace the rank & file units as well as the cavalry. Doing this would change the fabric of the faction, giving you an entirely different play style while reusing many existing units. In effect, their rank & file could act like Wood Elves while being backed up by very heavy monstrous support. Additionally, the Lizardmen faction could undergo an overhaul at the same time as well as receiving potential FLC LL and perhaps make use of the Lore of the Serpent.

* * * * * *

That was just a very quick example of what could be done, but there are many potential options for sub-races out there, ones that use some existing units while providing a number of new units devoted to that particular sub-race. Here are a few possibilities:

Bretonnia:- Antoch, Mousilion

Dwarfs:- Norse Dwarfs

Lizardmen:- Amazons

Norsca:- Albion, Fimir

Ogre Kingdoms:- Gnoblar Rebellion

The Empire:- Halflings, Middenland, perhaps even somewhere like Estalia

Wood Elves:- Zoats

I'm sure there are many more possibilities, and perhaps some would be better as a standard addition to the core race, but I think the concept of sub-races has merit. What do you think?

I think most subraces can be part of the Dogs of War race pack. This can be the best of both worlds.

Yes, absolutely. But how are you talking about subraces without a single mention of the Greenskins? Listen:

Greenskins: Full variety of all the subraces in a single CoC-style DLC. That's subraces in total.

Vampires: The Bloodlines, with special attention paid to the Strigoi and their dominion over living Strigany. We have already two potential units from 6th edition, Strigany dual-sword infantry and a Domnu unit champion/hero.
Vampire Coast: Obviously full living roster for Aranessa and some ghost options for Cylostra.

Ogres: Either Great-King-Lord Bezar or Katerina de Hansebourg leading the Gnoblars.

Beastmen: Ghorros and the Centigors

Lizardmen: I'd love Amazons for Lizardmen if they aren't put in DoW. Means Lizardmen can get 2 DLCs.

Skaven: We still have a lot of Clan Pestilence and Moulder flavour left to get, especially generic lords. Hence why I, normally a Skaven-hater, have always advocated for more than just Thanquol.

Dwarfs: Norse Dwarfs, using Citadel Journal and marginal sources, can be made a full subrace with unique units once we move Malakai out of the way.

Chaos Dwarfs: Invent a new Hobgoblin character (since Gorduz missed his chance) and expand upon the Hobgoblin servants.

Empire: Halflings of course, unless made into DoW

Norsca: Only Fimir, Albion would need to be seperate.

Tomb Kings: Tutankhanut and his living Scythans.

Not sure we should have Zoats for WE and I don't think Mousillon counts as a subrace for Bretonnia. But otherwise, a focus on subraces would add so much to the game.

It’s. It a bad idea, and certainly better than the ever-reoccurring suggestion for CoV-style DLC.

I don’t think it should be the sole focus, but doing the occasional targeted sub race makes a lot of sense.  

I think we have too many existing races that need lord packs (with some needing multiple) that should be taken care of before we start adding more

How it's described here? No, it's simply just out of the scope of a lord pack DLC to make all the bespoke units needed for say a Amazon faction with all unique infantry and cavalry. Secondly, while somethings here could be made with a lord pack, Middenland for example. There are just too many here that couldn't be represented well.

Halflings in the Moot:

Hot Pot artillery

Kathleen Soup Tank

Halfling Archers, Halfling Spearmen (stalk)

Halfling Cavalry

Available to Empire, Ogres, Dwarfs and Dogs of War.

Unnecessary to say the least, all that you mentioned can be or is already part of an existing/future Race, I see absolutely no reason to change that.

PLHenry#4565 wrote:

The latest DLC has dealt heavily with themes, whether it's the Tamurkhan book, Nuln or slayers, and a lot of players seem very keen with the idea of devoting DLC to a dedicated theme. However, there are limited lords left for some factions and it can be too late to explore some themes. What I'm curious about is whether you would want CA to go a step further and use Lord Pack DLC to establish sub-races on the map, but first I should explain what I mean with a rough example:

* * * * * *

Example Subrace:- Amazons

Example Legendary Lord: Anakonda

Example Lore of Magic: Lore of the Serpent

Example Heroes/Lords: Serpent Priestess (Spellcaster, Serpent Lore), Koka-Kalim (Melee)

Example Units: Tribeswomen, Skink Hunters, Eagle Warriors, Jaguar Warriors, Pirahna Warriors, Berserkers, Cold One Riders, etc.

The Amazons would be a subrace of the Lizardmen race. They would access most of their monstrous units, but the Amazons themselves would replace the rank & file units as well as the cavalry. Doing this would change the fabric of the faction, giving you an entirely different play style while reusing many existing units. In effect, their rank & file could act like Wood Elves while being backed up by very heavy monstrous support. Additionally, the Lizardmen faction could undergo an overhaul at the same time as well as receiving potential FLC LL and perhaps make use of the Lore of the Serpent.

* * * * * *

That was just a very quick example of what could be done, but there are many potential options for sub-races out there, ones that use some existing units while providing a number of new units devoted to that particular sub-race. Here are a few possibilities:

Bretonnia:- Antoch, Mousilion

Dwarfs:- Norse Dwarfs

Lizardmen:- Amazons

Norsca:- Albion, Fimir

Ogre Kingdoms:- Gnoblar Rebellion

The Empire:- Halflings, Middenland, perhaps even somewhere like Estalia

Wood Elves:- Zoats

I'm sure there are many more possibilities, and perhaps some would be better as a standard addition to the core race, but I think the concept of sub-races has merit. What do you think?

You and me. I also thought about something like this. We already have the blueprint for this in the form of Savage Orcs for Greenskins where you can build their unique structures in settlements with an icon of theirs. But extend that to those subs, give them their own lords, heroes and units and as long as you control that settlement, then you can have access to all those goodies after building the proper buildings.

Do the same with Amazons, with Halflings, with Norse Dwarfs, with...honestly a whole lot of folks in the game and BTW expand the Savage Orcs

However I see the likes of Mousilion as more of a factions in their own right than a sub for Brets due to how drastically different the place is. I mean under Mallobaude, Mousilion has:

- Mutant Peasants

- Undead

- Mercenaries

- Gunpowder Weapons

- Stock Bretonnian forces in the form of disgraced knights

- A whole lot of other darker stuff

All because Mallobaude saw Ze Lady the wrong way and went full SCREW ZE LADY AND ZIS FALSE CHIVALRY THING.

Do the same with Amazons, with Halflings, with Norse Dwarfs, with...honestly a whole lot of folks in the game and BTW expand the Savage Orcs

However I see the likes of Mousilion as more of a factions in their own right than a sub for Brets due to how drastically different the place is. I mean under Mallobaude, Mousilion has:

- Mutant Peasants

- Undead

- Mercenaries

- Gunpowder Weapons

- Stock Bretonnian forces in the form of disgraced knights

- A whole lot of other darker stuff

All because Mallobaude saw Ze Lady the wrong way and went full SCREW ZE LADY AND ZIS FALSE CHIVALRY THING.

Why would Mousilion have gun power weapons? The rest fine, but its like a super poor region, beyond poor, if a village has a pig its considered rich. They don't have guns, weapons of the population are normally little more than a sharp or heavy stick.

lots of ghouls however.. knights of the black grail, vampires, necromancers.. tons of cool stuff.

Subraces continue to function like Savage Orc Tribes.  Minor Factions meant to represent specific cultures who are limited to specific units one of the playable Races.

That said, we should definitely have more Subraces than we do currently.  All we have currently are Savage Orc Tribes, and the Southern Realms, which will be going away in the future when they get their own Race.

Personally, I think the minimum a Subrace should have is a Lord, a Hero, and 5 different units.  SOTs have their 5 units, but are missing a L and H.

Some Subraces I think we should have:

Savage Orcs

L:  Savage Orc Great Shaman

H: Savage Orc Boss

Savage Orcs

Savage Orc Big ‘Uns

Savage Orc Arrer Boyz

Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Savage Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns

Hobgoblins

L: Hobgoblin Khan (not present in the CD roster, only exists in Hobgoblins Minor Factions)

H: Hobgoblin Boss

Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits

Hobgoblin Cutthroats
Hobgoblin Archers
Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders (Spears/Bows)

Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower

Araby
L: Arabyan Sorcerer Lord
H: Arabyan Sheik

Arabyan Guards (Swords+Shields)

Arabyan Desert Riders (Swords+Shields)

Arabyan Camel Riders (Jezzails)

Arabyan Flying Carpets (Bows)
Arabyan War Elephant (Spears+Bows)

Halflings

L: Halfling Moot General

H: Halfling Master Chef

Halfling Fieldwardens (Spears)

Halfling Thieves (Dual Daggers+Throwing Knives)

Halfling Poachers (Bows)

Halfling Battle Ram Riders

Halfling Hot Pot

Amazons

L: ?

H: Amazon Serpent Priestess

Amazon Eagle Warriors (Spears+Shields)

Amazon Jaguar Warriors (Dual Claws)

Amazon Python Warriors (Javelins)

Amazon Piranha Warriors (Blowpipes)

Amazon Culchan Riders

crimsonsun#1168 wrote:

Do the same with Amazons, with Halflings, with Norse Dwarfs, with...honestly a whole lot of folks in the game and BTW expand the Savage Orcs

However I see the likes of Mousilion as more of a factions in their own right than a sub for Brets due to how drastically different the place is. I mean under Mallobaude, Mousilion has:

- Mutant Peasants

- Undead

- Mercenaries

- Gunpowder Weapons

- Stock Bretonnian forces in the form of disgraced knights

- A whole lot of other darker stuff

All because Mallobaude saw Ze Lady the wrong way and went full SCREW ZE LADY AND ZIS FALSE CHIVALRY THING.

Why would Mousilion have gun power weapons? The rest fine, but its like a super poor region, beyond poor, if a village has a pig its considered rich. They don't have guns, weapons of the population are normally little more than a sharp or heavy stick.

lots of ghouls however.. knights of the black grail, vampires, necromancers.. tons of cool stuff.

Because Mallobaude doesn't play chivalrously. Gunpowder weapons (and crossbows) are forbidden by Bret laws due to being dishonorable (and so that people wouldn't simply shoot the knights when the taxes are a tad too high). Mallobaude says SCREW ZIS, and grabs a stock of them for his conquest spree. This is even written in the lore of his and Mousilion.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

Subraces continue to function like Savage Orc Tribes.  Minor Factions meant to represent specific cultures who are limited to specific units one of the playable Races.

That said, we should definitely have more Subraces than we do currently.  All we have currently are Savage Orc Tribes, and the Southern Realms, which will be going away in the future when they get their own Race.

Personally, I think the minimum a Subrace should have is a Lord, a Hero, and 5 different units.  SOTs have their 5 units, but are missing a L and H.

Some Subraces I think we should have:

Savage Orcs

L:  Savage Orc Great Shaman

H: Savage Orc Boss

Savage Orcs

Savage Orc Big ‘Uns

Savage Orc Arrer Boyz

Savage Orc Boar Boyz
Savage Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns

Hobgoblins

L: Hobgoblin Khan (not present in the CD roster, only exists in Hobgoblins Minor Factions)

H: Hobgoblin Boss

Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits

Hobgoblin Cutthroats
Hobgoblin Archers
Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders (Spears/Bows)

Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower

Araby
L: Arabyan Sorcerer Lord
H: Arabyan Sheik

Arabyan Guards (Swords+Shields)

Arabyan Desert Riders (Swords+Shields)

Arabyan Camel Riders (Jezzails)

Arabyan Flying Carpets (Bows)
Arabyan War Elephant (Spears+Bows)

Halflings

L: Halfling Moot General

H: Halfling Master Chef

Halfling Fieldwardens (Spears)

Halfling Thieves (Dual Daggers+Throwing Knives)

Halfling Poachers (Bows)

Halfling Battle Ram Riders

Halfling Hot Pot

Amazons

L: ?

H: Amazon Serpent Priestess

Amazon Eagle Warriors (Spears+Shields)

Amazon Jaguar Warriors (Dual Claws)

Amazon Python Warriors (Javelins)

Amazon Piranha Warriors (Blowpipes)

Amazon Culchan Riders

Yep.

Player#29983 wrote:

Amazon Culchan Riders

Totally agree, a subfactions should have at least 1 generic Lord, 1 generic hero and 5 units.  

If I look on Araby I hope for more than only a subfaction. Hopefully they become more flashed out as a full faction. But little is better than nothing.

With how CA are "theming" some dlc now it does seem like they realize a lot more that people like having all the little subgroups in a race to be fleshed out and I'm hoping they keep fleshing them out/work on fleshing the existing ones. Skaven having their various clans and having a hero and lord* for each (Though we're missing the Plague Lord and Master Mutator), Greenskins having their various subraces (Still missing a few as well), Empire getting an Engineer lord. Still need TK to get a Grand Necrotect and High Lich Priest, and Norsca to get a Norscan Reaver, Fimir warlord, and Kurgan Shaman Would be great. 

Player#29983 wrote:

Totally agree, a subfactions should have at least 1 generic Lord, 1 generic hero and 5 units.  

If I look on Araby I hope for more than only a subfaction. Hopefully they become more fleshed out as a full faction. But little is better than nothing.

Araby is the kind of faction that'd require a full roster, because it isn't really associated with another faction, so it couldn't really work as a subrace. Something like Halflings can be a subrace for the Empire, as they're associated with them so you can justify reusing some Empire stuff alongside a small halfling roster to create a new subrace.

PLHenry#4565 wrote:
Araby is the kind of faction that'd require a full roster, because it isn't really associated with another faction, so it couldn't really work as a subrace.

Any faction can work as a Subrace of DoW.  Because DoW is a potpourri of different cultures.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

PLHenry#4565 wrote:
Araby is the kind of faction that'd require a full roster, because it isn't really associated with another faction, so it couldn't really work as a subrace.

Any faction can work as a Subrace of DoW.  Because DoW is a potpourri of different cultures.

If they do Dogs of war justice they will be both a playable faction and a huge expansion to other races as subfactions and RoR.. I would love to see it but its a lot of scope and I'm concerned just how much more stuff we are likely to see at this point.

Ben1990#8909 wrote:

crimsonsun#1168 wrote:

Do the same with Amazons, with Halflings, with Norse Dwarfs, with...honestly a whole lot of folks in the game and BTW expand the Savage Orcs

However I see the likes of Mousilion as more of a factions in their own right than a sub for Brets due to how drastically different the place is. I mean under Mallobaude, Mousilion has:

- Mutant Peasants

- Undead

- Mercenaries

- Gunpowder Weapons

- Stock Bretonnian forces in the form of disgraced knights

- A whole lot of other darker stuff

All because Mallobaude saw Ze Lady the wrong way and went full SCREW ZE LADY AND ZIS FALSE CHIVALRY THING.

Why would Mousilion have gun power weapons? The rest fine, but its like a super poor region, beyond poor, if a village has a pig its considered rich. They don't have guns, weapons of the population are normally little more than a sharp or heavy stick.

lots of ghouls however.. knights of the black grail, vampires, necromancers.. tons of cool stuff.

Because Mallobaude doesn't play chivalrously. Gunpowder weapons (and crossbows) are forbidden by Bret laws due to being dishonorable (and so that people wouldn't simply shoot the knights when the taxes are a tad too high). Mallobaude says SCREW ZIS, and grabs a stock of them for his conquest spree. This is even written in the lore of his and Mousilion.

What you are talking about is a Bretionnian outcasts list like the army of infamy released for Old World. I don't personally feel that's the sort of list he would be part of, his list is vastly more evil and undead with brets. Of course we can have different opinions on this.