Yosenhimen#6538 wrote:
The Changeling may as well not exist

Exactly what he wants you to think...

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

Yosenhimen#6538 wrote:
The Changeling may as well not exist

Exactly what he wants you to think...

Jokes aside, I think you know exactly what I'm talking about. Load up a game as Kairos and watch how long The Changeling survives. If you can even find him in time using all your grimoires to reveal the map up to his starting zone. 

Same as Beastmen, or most 'weird' factions. The AI is inept.

Tzeentch mains seem weird.

I'm happy to just recruit a Sorcerer lord, slap him on a disk, and solo armies with magic...

Mastigos#4130 wrote:

Averath#4228 wrote:

Honestly, considering what we got, I would have preferred that The Changeling didn't exist at all. The concept for the tabletop and lore is fine. But the concept for the gameplay loop doesn't make sense in the context of a Total War title.

I repect your opinion, but it is what we got. And it's absolutely not fair that The Changeling - who I payed more than enough money to have in the game - is nerfed to worthlessness the moment I choose to play Kairos instead.

Especially since Tzeentch mains were led to believe that The Changeling would help Kairos create cults.
It worked! Until The Changeling started dying on turn 10 because one defeat spelled GAME OVER for his faction.

I wonder how Skaven players would feel if losing one battle with their faction leader in it caused the entire system of undercities to be revealed. Oh, and Skaven couldn't own their own cities either. That would not go over well. 

I think the problem is that if The Changeling was not made irrelevant as an AI, it would be obnoxious to play against and would be frustrating, not fun or engaging.

Because of how The Changeling works, it honestly feels as if it should be a recruitable Legendary Lord via a quest chain if they're not currently being played by a human player.

As it is, AI Skaven factions can create undercities, so you don't control every undercity on the map yourself.

And as to your other point using Skaven as an example. While I agree that that change may not have been the greatest, The Changeling's design was awful to begin with and has zero counterplay. So I blame the fundamental concept and design for The Changeling, as opposed to the response and nerf to The Changeling. If you don't want The Changeling nerfed like this, you'd have to redesign The Changeling on a fundamental level.

Or, as I said above, just make The Changeling only active as a faction if played by a player, and otherwise they are a quest reward for Tzeentch Factions. Perhaps with a buff to Cult Creation to compensate for their lack of being on the campaign map. Perhaps a +25% campaign movement speed for Cultists and/or a cooldown to establish Cults?

Granted... Cults would have to be good to begin with to warrant that, and... they kind of suck. So, yeah. At least Skaven Undercities are useful. :S

Surge_2#1464 wrote:

Tzeentch mains seem weird.

I'm happy to just recruit a Sorcerer lord, slap him on a disk, and solo armies with magic...

Here comes the personal insults and exaggerations. 

In a Gelt campaign I did he caused a lot of trouble for Stirland. It had bad corruption and I had to divert to deal with him while trying to fight Vlad. So he can do stuff sometimes.

To be fair it's an exception when he is a pain.

As a Tzeentch player, it annoys the heck out of me that it is virtually impossible to get a hero all the way up to the Empire before the Changeling is gone. The best I've managed was getting a hero up in time to find decreasing Tzeentch corruption. And because the Changeling doesn't have a starting settlement, it obviously cannot be resurrected. 

Doing it the other way, playing as Changeling and confed'ing Kairos, just feels weird. Kairos doesn't really fit the theme of a Changeling campaign and the campaign isn't that easy to sandbox. 

All in all, the synergy between the two factions just isn't there, which is quite aggravating when Uncle Stinky is now getting a full three factions that do appear to be able to work together.

Mastigos#4130 wrote:
I get that The Changeling may be unfun to play against, but CA's "solution" was shit.

I agree.

Mastigos#4130 wrote:
I'd much rather have The Changeling redesigned rather than worthless unless played by a real person. Or as you said, a quest reward for Kairos when The Changeling is not actively chosen by the player. Maybe like Coeddil?

Coeddil is actually a really great idea, yeah.

Mastigos#4130 wrote:
The only other thing that springs to mind are the buildings which detect Undercities. I could've sworn they also work against The Changeling. If they don't, they should. If they do, there is built-in counterplay in every city a faction can create.

I believe that they currently are set to reveal hidden armies in the region, as well as reveal cults and undercities if they reach a certain detection threshold. I also know that heroes reveal it as well, though I don't know if all of them do, or only certain ones like Witch Hunters.

Mastigos#4130 wrote:
I'm really not sure what CA ought to do; but I know for a damn fact that their current solution stiffs everyone who purchased Shadows of Change unders the impression that we'd have faction synergy between Kairos and the new LL (who happens to be The Changeling). There is no faction synergy when one of the factions consistently dies within a few turns unless played by a real individual. That's not synergy; that's strongarming Tzeentch players to play the new guy "or else." 

I believe that the ship for Shadows of Change updates has sailed for the time being. We'll have to wait for another Tzeentch-focused DLC for them to potentially "update" the faction and potentially rework The Changeling. At least as an NPC faction. But we'll have to see. I do feel that we shouldn't let the idea die, though.

Averath#4228 wrote:

Honestly, considering what we got, I would have preferred that The Changeling didn't exist at all. The concept for the tabletop and lore is fine. But the concept for the gameplay loop doesn't make sense in the context of a Total War title.

Imho Changeling is super boring to play and has a weak campaign.

For me Aekold as LL would have been way better with changeling as an amazing LH, but that ship has sailed.  

The ship may have sailed, but we must not throw up our hands and give in.


Whether you payed for Shadows of Change to play The Changeling or not, having a LL that simply does nothing most of the time unless you play him is bad design.

The Changeling is as awful to play as well as in the AI's hands.

GBone#4408 wrote:

The Changeling is as awful to play as well as in the AI's hands.

I disagree, but that's what opinions are: largely preference. If I was forced to play Orcs every game, I'd quit.

But we're both kind of digressing from the subject. The Changeling needs a better solution than "either play this faction, or it dies" when Shadows of Change made the (largely implied) commitment to cults being useful and more central to how Tzeentch plays.

Well, if you're playing Kairos and The Changeling is alive, they are useful: mostly because they now exist in significant numbers. I don't mean The Changeling cults, either. I mean Kairos cults: a building that can ONLY be built when Tzeentch corruption invades enemy territory that you don't control.

Guess who does that as a core mechanic? The Changeling.
Guess who was nerfed for the same of "being unfun." The Changeling.
Guess who paid $25 bucks to have The Changeling in the game (and I don't just mean playing as him, I also mean benefitting from the blatantly obvious advantages he brings to Kairos): me.

So CA nabs my $25 bucks, then decides to nerf the AI version of The Changeling to essentially be exposed worldwide and promptly die after losing a single battle.

I could imagine how enraged people would be if, say, Emperor Franz or Tyrion or Malekith just up and died if they - as the AI - died one time.
And just so we're clear: I'm not exaggerating. The Changeling doesn't own land; he corrupts land and plants secret cults inside enemy cities. If all his cults (which he relies on for everything from money, to buying units, to respawning) are revealed worldwide and destroyed after The Changeling loses one battle, how is this helping Kairos in any way?

I'm forced to play The Changeling if I want him to survive. And if I do that and then confederate Kairos, guess what happens to all the progress Kairos made in the interim? All his builds blow up and turn into ruins. Yep, confederating Kairos as The Changeling makes it so my confederation partner loses everything.

CA has forced Tzeentch players to 1) play The Changeling OR have The Changeling die in nearly every game without making any significant impact whatsoever, 2) become the vassal of an NPC or have his buildings explode, or 3) play as Kairos, get none of the help with cults that was implied to be part of Shadows of Change, and have no way of reviving The Changeling.

There are so many ways to fix this:
Move The Changeling so he doesn't begin literally surrounded by enemies.

Make it so Kairos can revive The Changeling if The Changeling dies (much like the upcoming Dwarven mechanic of recruiting defeated heroes).

Make Kairos recruit The Changeling just as Drycha recruits Coeddil, and still keep his buildings.

Rework The Changeling so he isn't as "annoying" to fight against WITHOUT making him fodder to the AI factions he begins surrounded by.