Khorne Unit updates

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2 hours ago
Oct 18, 2024, 11:29:52 PM

Just a brief thread was some suggestions for targeted adjustments to Khorne units with the upcoming DLC. Khorne has a large number of underperforming or weak units and mechanics that would benefit from an update and the patch following the DLC seems like a good time to address these weaknesses. All of the values I suggest are based on hitting certain performance targets which I will detail in comments below. This info is aimed at patch 6.1 since the first patch post DLC is a great time to touch up the faction which just received new content.

Suggestions

  • Bloodthirsters, Skarbrand, Exalted Bloodthirsters, and Daemon Princes could use +80 WS (either 100% AP or a 70/10 AP/base split). They also may benefit from a splash reduction, 2 for the Prince and Bloodthirster, 1 for the Exalted Bloodthirster, none for Skarbrand if his WS is buffed.

 

  • Exalted Bloodthirster and Skarbrands breath attacks should have their cost set to 0 (Bellow of Fury and Bellow of Endless Fury). Additionally consider removing the melee lockout.

 

  • Skarbrand's Wrathful Reaper should be buffed to 75% WS increase since it's just a worse version of Deathbringer now.

 

  • Slaughter and Carnage and the Scarlet armor should have their charge conditions lowered by 100 kills.

 

  • Lord of Khorne and Exalted Heroes of Khorne should have their AP ratio improved to ~35% like the unmarked Chaos Lord (180 AP out of 510 WS).

 

  • Lord of Khorne and Exalted Heroes of Khorne should have their collision attack max target and cooldown increased by 1 on the Gorebeast chariot mount.

 

  • Exalted Bloodthirsters should have their Burning Rage ability buffed given it's limited uses, something like 40/20 AP/Base.

 

  • Paragon of Carnage should have a +WS (base and AP) component added of 15-20%. Also consider lowering the nearby death requirement, 200 is somewhat steep.

 

  • Gaze of Khorne should have it's +WS component boosted to 15-20%

 

  • Giver of Furious Glory should have it's +WS component boosted to 30-40%

 

  • Khorne Dual Axes should have their price lowered by 50 gold.

 

  • Minotaurs of Khorne (both variants) should have their price increased by 50 gold.

 

  • Skullcrushers and Bloodcrushers should have their splash target size set to a null value, should have their speed increased to 70, and should gain +16 health per entity (+512 total)

 

  • Skullcrushers should have their CB boosted by 10

 

  • Bloodcrushers should have their MD increased by +4 and their CB boosted by 5.

 

  • Khorne Knights would benefit from having their model count reduced to 48, their HP increased by +33-34 per entity (final health is 8064 or 8112 compared to live 8100) and the lance variant should gain +10 CB.

 

  • Gorebeast chariots should have their WS increased to 100 (80/20 AP/Base) and their collision attacks increased from 1/1 to 2/2 max targets and max target cooldown.

 

  • Khorne Soulgrinder should have it's shotgun buffed significantly, such as by increasing the number of shots per volley from 1 to 3.

 

  • Forsaken of Khorne could use an increase in health of +5 per entity for 400 extra health (general buff to all Forsaken) and +5 CB (specific buff to make up for the mark of Khorne doing little for the unit).

Honorable Mentions

 

  • Taurox's Rune Tortured Axes are terrible, they should have their WS value buffed to ~50-75% (it's 15% max now) and should be moved to the new intensity system charging off of either kills or time in melee.

 

  • Bloodletters and Exalted Bloodletters have less BvI than empire Greatswords.


 

Updated an hour ago.
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2 hours ago
Oct 18, 2024, 11:38:30 PM

​Single Entity WS

Skarbrand, Bloodthirsters, Exalted Bloodthirsters, and the Daemon Prince of Khorne aren't great combatants for their high prices largely down to low WS and low AP ratios. Looking at Giants, Dragons, Shaggoths, Ghorgons, etc. we see an average AP ratio of around 72% with WS values ranging from 460 to 700. Khornes design calls for melee excellence across the board, however Khorne units fail at this task having WS on the low end considering price and having poor AP ratios. 

 

The Daemon Prince of Khorne has 520 WS and a 61% AP ratio. (572 with Frenzy). +80 AP gives 600 with a 67% AP ratio (660 with Frenzy)

 

The Bloodthirster has 520 WS with a 69% AP ratio. +80 AP gives 600 WS with a 73% AP ratio. 

 

The Exalted Bloodthirster has 580 WS with a 69% AP ratio. +80 AP gives 660 WS with a 73% AP ratio.

 

Skarbrand has 620 WS with a 70% AP ratio (682 with Frenzy). +80 AP gives him 700 Ws with a 74% AP ratio (770 with Frenzy)

 

Moon Dragons have 520 WS with a 73% AP ratio for cheaper with a breath attack thrown in.

 

Imrik has 580 WS with a 78% AP ratio at a discount to the Bloodthirster characters when accounting for the breath attack tax.

 

Archaon has 470 WS with a 70% AP ratio (517 with Frenzy) while also being a caster and at a much lower price point.

 

The suggested changes produce a reasonable combat premium for Khorne characters considering price and bring their AP ratios into the average range as all are somewhat below average.

 

Similarly Khorne's mortal characters are harmed with a lower AP ratio than the unmarked version. Matching their AP ratio to the unmarked lords helps their appeal off of the Juggernaut. Setting their Knockdown resist to 80% like the dwarfs allows the foot versions to be more effective as cheap duelists as well, a trend that is beneficial for all foot characters. The results end up being reasonably above average as we'd expect form Khorne.


Finally the Soulgrinders ability to deal damage with it's missile is abyssal and needs significant help. With the current values even if made targetable it'd be fairly weak so I'd lean into making it unreliable but powerful. Boosting the number of projectiles to 3 helps with this while being difficult to abuse simply because you can't reliably target them (their accuracy is also poor as a shotgun). For clarity the max damage you can get with 3 projectiles would be 1080 with a 75% AP ratio. Dedicated artillery like Little Grom are at 785 (79% AP), Cannons with 4 entities are 1760. The result would be powerful but limited which is I think the goal.

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an hour ago
Oct 19, 2024, 12:10:33 AM

Bloodthirster Breath Attacks and abilities

This is pretty straight forward, most units don't pay for breath attacks. I suspect this is because of how abilities are gained in campaign. Since assigning a unit the ability naturally would interfere with campaign unlocks simply making the abilities costless in multiplayer is the easiest solution. I debated suggesting the addition of breath attacks to the unit bloodthirsters but since that poses a potential animation challenge I settled the WS buffs

 

Additionally the lock out of engaging in melee often makes the breath attacks overly difficult to use for grounded melee characters. It feels bad when your breath attack is cancelled at the end of the animation by a single melee attack.


For Skarbrand Wrathful Reaper really needs to be stronger, as it's just Deathbringer with a shorter cooldown (lowered with the rampage rework) that inflicts guaranteed rampage on Skarbrand. Bumping it to 75% gives a meaningful benefit over Deathbringer.


Slaughter and Carnage suffers from an excessive kill requirement at 300. Partial charges on this item can actually be quite appealing as always active buffs, but 3 kills for 1% is quite steep. Lowering it to 200 makes it easier to get to meaningful values off partial charges. Charging 50% faster is a substantial buff that still makes it difficult to reach max charge in a multiplayer setting.


Burning Rage just kind of sucks at 20 damage with only 3 charges. It can't even effectively clear chaff whose health is consistently in the 60s. 40 AP and 20 Base still makes it impossible to kill most chaff instantly but it provides some solid AoE damage and makes it much easier for Khorne infantry to cut them down afterwards.

Mortal Abilities and Items

The mortal abilities tend to suffer from a single issue which is WS buff values being non-existent or too weak. Khorne has an excessive pool of MA buffs which given every unit comes with Frenzy faces a significant diminishing return. Adding and increasing the WS buffs provides niches for units which currently are ignored. My reference point is the Arcane Charge ability from Tzeentch which has a much easier condition to reach and scales up to 20% base and AP.



Paragon of Carnage is the biggest offender requiring 200 deaths in the vicinity for +8 MA. That's 0.04 MA per death. This is unplayable as is. Adding a WS value of +15-20% (base and AP) provides a meaningful benefit and one that charges at a more noticeable rate. I'd probably also lower the death count somewhat but +8 MA even with a much smaller death count is unlikely to see any play.


Gaze of Khorne is constantly cut from Valkia as 5% WS even while constantly on is often just a single point of WS. Raising it significantly gives her a greater support role and helps her dueling which is currently a bit lacking if players are willing to spend more. 15% puts her at exactly 500 WS with frenzy active but it may be a bit too low given the standard set by arcane charge, so 20% is worth considering.



Speaking of Valkia, her Scarlet Armor is extremely difficult to charge with her combat abilities, lowering the kill count from 100 to 50 would help immensely. That or fixing the bug which makes partial charges on the start of battles impossible.



Giver of Furious Glory for the Warshrine is the biggest offender launching with 5% WS and later being buffed to 15%. However with a death count of 300 the payout just isn't worth it. Significantly increasing the value means a partial charge has an impact and a full charge may actually be able to significantly flip fights. 30-40% was my thinking, picking double Gaze of Khorne's value. I think 300 nearby kills is actually quite doable, the values are just too low to be worthwhile.


For my honorable mention is Taurox's Rune Tortured Axes. 15% WS for 90 seconds in combat is unplayable. I'd move it to the new intensity setting and make it a mini Slaughter and Carnage. Either time in melee or kills to charge would be fine as long as the value is worthwhile, 60-75% would be my recommendation.


Updated 25 minutes ago.
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27 minutes ago
Oct 19, 2024, 12:42:31 AM

Khorne Cav

It's no secret Bloodcrushers and Skullcrushers are somewhat disappointing. This comes from a combination of factors and therefore requires multiple targeted buffs to address them.


First speed, 62 is just too slow post 2.0. Originally 62 was balanced around a 66 speed for heavy cavalry like Chaos Knights or Empire Knights. With those speeds set at 70 and 78 Juggernaut cav (and characters) are easily avoided by other mobile units. Additionally when engaging against infantry while decent damage dealers (though they've been powercrept somewhat) they cannot easily cycle charge without bleeding significant value due to their extremely slow speed outside of the charge. Raising them to 70 move speed helps significant.


Next is damage. All monstrous cav suffer from pretty poor splash optimization when attacking infantry. Skullcrushers ~147 damage (70% AP) per attack on the charge but currently divide that between 4 targets when fighting infantry. This results in about 37 damage per target before armor which is unable to kill a gnoblar. This means entities which survive attacks can absorb impact damage meant for other targets and means follow up attacks are at a significant risk of wasting damage by overkilling. Even if you lower the splash value to 2 you end up with ~74 damage before armor which regularly fails to kill empire swordsmen. 70 damage when armor low rolls 15% reduction just barely kills a swordsmen in one attack. Against every mid tier infantry you're looking at 2 attacks at best.


This gets even worse in sustained combat where even bloodcrushers with their 18 BVI are unable to kill a full health gnoblar with splash set to 2, much less 4 (39 damage versus 56 health). Removing splash improves performance and kills notably, increasing damage into infantry by around 15% without impacting performance into large. I'd encourage extending this to all monstrous cavalry who tend to underperform into infantry relative to normal cav.


The offensive and defensive buffs suggested also serve to help the Juggs compete with Chaos Knights who are extremely appealing for the price even while bugged. Both cav are a bit too squishy for the price on a faction without healing, both are offensively a bit too weak for Khorne, and Bloodcrushers lack the MD to properly performance as a melee cav.
Chaos Knights here is mostly just a repeat of the model reduction changes I've suggested to address the model sizing issues. Main valuable addition is the WS increase aimed at addressing the model bug undercut the CB trade off compared to the MD of the sword and board knights. increasing the CB of the lances is a good fix and should be extended to all variants. Also please remove splash from the swords of chaos, they're so close to being good.


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15 minutes ago
Oct 19, 2024, 12:55:03 AM

Gorebeasts

In brief, these guys don't get enough for their trade offs. The character mounts are an easy fix, their higher AP values and damage are actually a decent gain over other chaos chariot mounts their collision attack values just waste a lot of damage. Raising them by 1 produces a better optimized result and makes them have real gain for the speed loss.


For the unit they suffer from the problem most elite chariots do now that most mid tier chariots mulch all by the highest armor infantry in a single hit. 146 damage (28% AP) and 177 damage (67% AP) are the same against most infantry who are instantly killed. Jade Warriors at 80 armor still die in one hit on average to both chariots before considering impact damage. At a more than 50% price increase you just don't get anything worthwhile. The solution is to get Gorebeasts to the point where they can kill or severely damage 2 mid tier infantry in a single collision attack. My recommendation is based on hitting WS values which kill chaos warrior more than half the time on average. 


228 total damage divided by 2 with an 80% AP ratio gets us ~91 damage which is guarenteed for the Khorne variant and common for the normal variant. As noted in another thread it's the model I'd recommend for Razorgor chariots, White lion chariots, and Cold One chariots as well.


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6 minutes ago
Oct 19, 2024, 1:03:53 AM

Other tweaks

Sort of the grab bag here.


Khorne Warriors with Dual Axes pay a premium over halberds and great weapons unlike the Chosen which feels off given their performance often isn't worthwhile over the shield variant for 150 less. Lowering the cost to 900 at least gives parity with the halberds and potentially gives them more of a chance to see play, though 850 would be more in line with the model used by the Chosen which is currently effective.


Khorne Minos are just too strong, have been since they got the major price cut and frenzy for free in 2.0. While they were fair to weak prior to those changes they've been crowding out other elite options for a long time and could use a price hike. Given I expect them to show up for the BM this also helps avoid them becoming the only marked BM unit we'll see after Tzeentigors get nerfed. +50 is conservative but makes them less cost effective relative to the Khorne cav who with the modest buffs suggested should all be competitive.


Forsaken of Khorne need more to make up for getting nothing from the mark of khorne but losing 5 MD. All Forsaken could use the health buff given they're not performing super well these days, with the CB buff giving Khorne Forsaken a meaningful damage boost over other units. These guys will probably still end up as a dead unit given the competition from bloodletters, Dual Axe Warriors, Shield Warriors, Dual Axe Marauders, and Khornegors but hey you do what you can.


Bloodletters and Exalted Bloodletters have less BvI than empire Greatswords. This isn't a necessary buff it just bothers me that Khornes greater Daemons are one of the GW with the worst benefit in terms of BvI. Extremely petty and unimportant but it bothers me.


Anyway thanks for getting to the end if you read through it, my hope is with these minor touch ups and the upcoming DLC Khorne can end up in a position where it'll be relatively stable balance wise and can be used as a measuring stick given it'll lack more DLC.



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