You mean the several other times you made a thread about them?
You know .. you're right!
Strange thing that .. just when one starts a conversation ... it suddenly comes to an abrupt end.
No one knows why .. one of life's great mysteries I guess. :)
Loreguy#1056 wrote:
It was not that important in this period but they should be present.
But without CA statement about this topic there is not much to debate.
You jest. So there's this game set in specific period of history, it's called PHAROAH: Total War
The Pharoah of the period, son of Rameses the Great (arguably one of Egypt's greatest rulers along with Thutmose III) made a monument, a monument to celebrate his alleged victories .. including over ISRAEL.
Did he / any Pharoah, Hittite king, etc from the period mention victory much less engagement with Lullubi, Igihalkid, Sutu, Shubru, Ithaca, Bоeotians, Thrace, Ithaca, Malidiya, Baharia, etc?
No, yet these factions have been included as playable factions and Israel omitted.
Further with the expansion of the game into later dates it's worth considering scholars like Eric Cline have stated Egypt had withdrawn from Canaan by 1140 BCE and the vacuum was filled by ... you guess it ... ISRAEL.
At the heart / cross-roads of the Bronze Age world we have recorded historic factions that are omitted.
Canaan .. where a signifcant amount of action happened, was fundamentally important.
Not sure we needed another one, but okay. The simple answer is that as it stands all we know is Pharaoh isn't going to have an Israelites faction in the Dynasty update. Whether something like that will come in future, either through DLC/update or through mods, only time well tell.
You mean the several other times you made a thread about them?
You know .. you're right!
Strange thing that .. just when one starts a conversation ... it suddenly comes to an abrupt end.
No one knows why .. one of life's great mysteries I guess. :)
Loreguy#1056 wrote:
It was not that important in this period but they should be present.
But without CA statement about this topic there is not much to debate.
You jest. So there's this game set in specific period of history, it's called PHAROAH: Total War
The Pharoah of the period, son of Rameses the Great (arguably one of Egypt's greatest rulers along with Thutmose III) made a monument, a monument to celebrate his alleged victories .. including over ISRAEL.
Did he / any Pharoah, Hittite king, etc from the period mention victory much less engagement with Lullubi, Igihalkid, Sutu, Shubru, Ithaca, Bоeotians, Thrace, Ithaca, Malidiya, Baharia, etc?
No, yet these factions have been included as playable factions and Israel omitted.
Further with the expansion of the game into later dates it's worth considering scholars like Eric Cline have stated Egypt had withdrawn from Canaan by 1140 BCE and the vacuum was filled by ... you guess it ... ISRAEL.
At the heart / cross-roads of the Bronze Age world we have recorded historic factions that are omitted.
Canaan .. where a signifcant amount of action happened, was fundamentally important.
The game's been out for a couple years now, with no mention of their inclusion or even presence in the map, roster, or events. That's the main reason why they're not really discussed, that and there isn't much of a demand to have them in the game.
Like it's just that simple. Stick in the Canaanites with a monotheistic religious system and maybe the Amazons' homeland mechanic and that's really all it could amount towards. It be fun but it's not really what people want.
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The game's been out for a couple years now, with no mention of their inclusion or even presence in the map, roster, or events. That's the main reason why they're not really discussed...
Fair point. But this did not prevent the community (and rightly so) for requesting
Assyria, Kassite Babylon, Amorite Ugarit, Hurrians / Mitanni etc other factions
that would significantly improve the title / Bronze Age setting and gameplay.
I also believe CA have done the ‘Canaanites’ a massive disservice .. No
distinction between the Northern Amorite populations (‘Syrians’) and their
cousins to the south, large areas of unplayable map, cities like Shechem in the
completely wrong place, sparse settlement / major city states completely omitted,
one homogeneous depiction, etc.
I believe CA have done an injustice to the semi-nomadic semitic ‘Bedouin’
tribes east of the Jordan, Edom, Moab, Ammon, etc … again with the generic
Egyptian ‘barbarian’ epitaph of Apiru / Shasu .. which had been dropped
by the game’s period in place of more precise names .. like ISRAEL
Canaan and her peoples were situated in a central part of the Bronze age
world. Egyptians, Hittites, Arameans, Assyrians, etc all spent considerable
time fighting over the place.
It deserves proper attention .. including the inclusion of Israel.
NemoTheElf101#1472wrote:
Like it's just that simple. Stick in the Canaanites with a monotheistic religious system and maybe the Amazons' homeland mechanic and that's really all it could amount towards. It be fun but it's not really what people want.
The Canaanites were not Monotheistic, but Hebrews may well
have been in this period as there is only one god recorded (Yaweh). Canaanite
religious influences don't start to become evident until the 8th and 7th
C BCE, with some inclusion of Baal and Asherah.
More importantly there was a distinct difference between
they (Canaanites) and the Hebrews of Israel. We know from the archaeological record (13th
C BCE) the Hebrews didn’t eat pork, they sacrificed what we would call Kosher
animals, they didn’t build their sacrificial alters like the Canaanites (with
stairs) but employed Egyptian type ramps and architecture, houses were different, etc. We know their DNA
had similar admixture from western semitic tribes like the Amorites but had
genetically split almost a millennia prior. To claim complete synergy between the
two would be akin to having Anglo-Saxon ‘English’ from 1,000 CE depicted as La
Tene (‘Celtic’) Britons.
All I ask is for the opportunity to play in an historic
setting with the historic factions. Play as one of the Pharaohs and fight the same
enemies they did and visa versa.
The historical 'what if" of TW titles has always been a huge interest.
We can't do that when recorded factions are omitted.
I personally would love to see the Habiru in the game. However, the fact that CA hasn't mentioned them at all seems rather telling.
Ultimately, they're either going to completely avoid the subject (I personally think that's dumb but they did completely omit the rise of Islam in Total War Attila - the Al Andalus faction in AoC was a lame cop out) or they're being saved for a DLC down the line.
At least take comfort from the thought that CA reads this forum and I am certain that they are very aware that there are some fans who are interested in seeing the Habiru.
I personally would love to see the Habiru in the game. However, the fact that CA hasn't mentioned them at all seems rather telling.
Ultimately, they're either going to completely avoid the subject (I personally think that's dumb but they did completely omit the rise of Islam in Total War Attila - the Al Andalus faction in AoC was a lame cop out) or they're being saved for a DLC down the line.
At least take comfort from the thought that CA reads this forum and I am certain that they are very aware that there are some fans who are interested in seeing the Habiru.
Cheers Darios.
We do have little bands of Habiru (rebels) in game.
However .. two points. First, the term is a generic term for a social group (of which the Hebrews of Israel constituted a major part from the mid 13th C BCE in Canaan / Amarna period). Second, the use of the term had almost ceased by the game's period. The last recorded instance was by Rameses IV in 1140 BCE in reference to slaves quarring in Wadi-Hammamat. It is more than a coincidence the mention of Habiru slaves / rebels is replaced by the term Israel from the late 13th century with Israel becoming the dominate force in the region from 1140 BCE, according to scholars like Cline.
With regard to Attila, I believe the game's end date was 450 CE (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that be the case, the rise of Islam would be regrettably (as I too would love to play the period) out of scope (Prophet (ﷺ) born in 570 CE). MTW and MTWII both imho, did a reasonable job of depicting the various Islamic factions, politics and religion, albeit a little light on the culture.. especially the golden age of Al Andalus under the Umayyads. But key point here, CA didn't omitted them, label them something like 'infidel' or 'muslims'. They were afforded their contemporary name and the repect warranted.
I personally would love to see the Habiru in the game. However, the fact that CA hasn't mentioned them at all seems rather telling.
Ultimately, they're either going to completely avoid the subject (I personally think that's dumb but they did completely omit the rise of Islam in Total War Attila - the Al Andalus faction in AoC was a lame cop out) or they're being saved for a DLC down the line.
At least take comfort from the thought that CA reads this forum and I am certain that they are very aware that there are some fans who are interested in seeing the Habiru.
Cheers Darios.
We do have little bands of Habiru (rebels) in game.
However .. two points. First, the term is a generic term for a social group (of which the Hebrews of Israel constituted a major part from the mid 13th C BCE in Canaan / Amarna period). Second, the use of the term had almost ceased by the game's period. The last recorded instance was by Rameses IV in 1140 BCE in reference to slaves quarring in Wadi-Hammamat. It is more than a coincidence the mention of Habiru slaves / rebels is replaced by the term Israel from the late 13th century with Israel becoming the dominate force in the region from 1140 BCE, according to scholars like Cline.
With regard to Attila, I believe the game's end date was 450 CE (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that be the case, the rise of Islam would be regrettably (as I too would love to play the period) out of scope (Prophet (ﷺ) born in 570 CE). MTW and MTWII both imho, did a reasonable job of depicting the various Islamic factions, politics and religion, albeit a little light on the culture.. especially the golden age of Al Andalus under the Umayyads. But key point here, CA didn't omitted them, label them something like 'infidel' or 'muslims'. They were afforded their contemporary name and the repect warranted.
I'm not referring to the Grand Campaign, but the fact that Attila ultimately did not release a campaign DLC taking place during the reign of Heraclius. It was one of those things that quite a few folks were really clamoring for. Al Andalus in the AoC campaign was CA trying to avoid touching the Roman/Sassanid wars with the Rashidun Caliphate. My guess was that the subject touched a bit too closely to modern day religious conflict and the proverbial clash of civilizations.
The devs might be ignoring Israel in Pharaoh for similar reasons. However, I would also argue that I would prefer to see Israel depicted as a DLC faction with serious research and unique mechanics put into it rather than just another random Canaanite minor faction coming with the next update. We'll see what happens!
I'm not referring to the Grand Campaign, but the fact that Attila ultimately did not release a campaign DLC taking place during the reign of Heraclius. It was one of those things that quite a few folks were really clamoring for. Al Andalus in the AoC campaign was CA trying to avoid touching the Roman/Sassanid wars with the Rashidun Caliphate. My guess was that the subject touched a bit too closely to modern day religious conflict and the proverbial clash of civilizations.
The devs might be ignoring Israel in Pharaoh for similar reasons. However, I would also argue that I would prefer to see Israel depicted as a DLC faction with serious research and unique mechanics put into it rather than just another random Canaanite minor faction coming with the next update. We'll see what happens!
True, I hate political revisionism with a passion.
You're not the only one to suggest a full DLC for Israel.
It may well be the best option, both for gameplay, financially and politically for CA.
True, I hate political revisionism with a passion.
And yet you ask for the inclusion of a faction that didn't exist during the Bronze Age Collapse but rose as a result of it.
Oh my friend, from whence has one come by such 'truths' ?
'ISRAEl' is attested (by name) in the arcehological record circa 1207 BCE .. by none other than Pharoah Merneptah .. the guy in the opening cutscenes of the game.
Further, the Hebrews of ISRAEL are attested from the mid 14th C BCE in Eastern Canaan , Judean Hills and Eastern Jordan.
There is signifcantly more factual data on ISRAEL than many of the recently announced factions.
I appreciate that at least CA told us that this will be the final addition to the title, so we won't have to spend the rest of the year speculating on future content.
True, I hate political revisionism with a passion.
And yet you ask for the inclusion of a faction that didn't exist during the Bronze Age Collapse but rose as a result of it.
Oh my friend, from whence has one come by such 'truths' ?
'ISRAEl' is attested (by name) in the arcehological record circa 1207 BCE .. by none other than Pharoah Merneptah .. the guy in the opening cutscenes of the game.
Further, the Hebrews of ISRAEL are attested from the mid 14th C BCE in Eastern Canaan , Judean Hills and Eastern Jordan.
There is signifcantly more factual data on ISRAEL than many of the recently announced factions.
Name the leader of that state. Name the gods they worshiped.
O right, you can't because that "Israel" never existed and the stele is referring to a strip of land. Face it, the first verfiable rulers of Israel are the Omrids from several centuries later.
Updated 2 months ago.
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I appreciate that at least CA told us that this will be the final addition to the title, so we won't have to spend the rest of the year speculating on future content.
For sure. The endless posts about Mythos/Israel/Elam/Siberian Hunter-Gatherers were getting annoying.
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