Is Tzeentch really the Chaos god of Magic?

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23 days ago
May 25, 2024, 10:35:14 PM



Tzeentch is supposed to be the Master of Magic. 
Gelt has more schools of magic available to him. 

Generally a higher WoM reserve due to a ton of Hedge Mage ancilliaries + tons of Mage Heroes of all "core" magic types. 
Gelt has access to Cataclysm Spells. 

Yes, Kairos gets the Blue Scribes. But so do Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos. I believe Be'lakor also gets the Blue Scribes, although I could be wrong. 
Racing for the Blue Scribes does NOT make you the "Master of Magic." 
Let's say you didn't get the Blue Scribes for whatever reason. Would Kairos feel like a master of magic on par with Teclis or Gelt or even Malekith or Mannfred? 
And what is with the clunky "equip item to switch up your spells" system that REPLACES two of your Lore of Tzeentch spells with two other spells? Does equipping an item and losing spells to gain others feel good? Is it particularly effective? 

I propose that Kairos, at the very least, gives all his Cultists / Harbingers / Lords of Change the Mastery of Elemental Winds buff instead of just his army. That way, you can have better spellcasting in secondary armies instead of just ones that Kairos leads. 


The Changeling -- remember, still a servant of the Lord of Magic -- is focused on trickery and deception, which is fine. But Tzeentch is still THE Chaos god of Magic. Nothing really makes me feel that when playing The Changeling, though. Except of course confederating Kairos. 


Why isn't there a magic-centric Unholy Manifestation for Kairos, by the way? We've got one for ammo, shield, and ranged damage but not magic potency? Why not replace the niche forced attrition skill with one that makes Kairos and friends better at magic? Just a suggestion. 


And finally: Lore of Tzeentch. I have way more respect for Lore of Tzeentch than I used to, but it still doesn't seem as powerful as, say, Lore of Vampires felt in WH1/WH2. 
It doesn't even feel as strong as some of the newer lores of Magic. 

I'm not asking for cheese. But I'd love for, say, Tzeentch's Firestorm and Infernal Gateway -- the "strongest" Lore of Tzeentch spells -- to get a modest buff. I mean look at Lore of Hag, or Kislev in general: Lore of Hag is off the chain, and Kislev in general has THREE completely unique, very powerful lores of magic. The Master of Magic gets one completely unique school of ma.....oh wait, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos.... I wouldn't exactly call it unique. 





Updated 23 days ago.
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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 6:35:46 AM
One, Tzeentch is the self-proclaimed inventor or magic, but many of the lores were developed by other people so that's already a questionable claim (and Tzzentch is not known for being especially honest in the first place). Two, he employs the Blue Scribes with the express purpose of picking up spells he doesn't know, so that's already an admission that magic is not something he entirely controls.

So from a lore-perspective, Tzeentch is in fact not the master of magic.

From a gameplay perspective I see no reason at all to buff Tzeentch's magic because he's already quite strong in it and if anything magic needs toning down in general, not even more spammery.
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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 7:40:49 AM

Given that everyone else but Khorne has some kind of it's own kind of Magic, I'm gonna go with 'No'.

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 8:06:26 AM

Here is the lore of Tzeentch: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tzeentch?so=search
Read the "Shattering of Tzeentch"

"They hurled Tzeentch from a mountain peak, and he shattered on the ground into ten thousand pieces that flew across infinity, each shard metamorphosing into a magical incantation. Today, these ten thousand spells trip from the tongues of magic-users all over the world."
"This myth demonstrates that all magic ultimately derives from Tzeentch, and to cast a spell is to manipulate the very essence of the Changer of Ways."


While Magic itself is the energy of chaos, Tzeentch is indeed the god of magic. 

But his main role is the god of change. And what can bring the most change - MAGIC ! Because it changes reality itself without following its(reality) rules. 

PS:Yeaaa I think he should have all lores ! If not all lores then atleast all lore of magic WoC has (without the god specific ones). This is one of those things that should have come with the rework... that we never got.

Updated 22 days ago.
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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 8:06:27 AM

Tzeentch is above all the god of manipulation and especially cunning. Hence the changeling anyway.

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 8:18:03 AM

1v0#3562 wrote:

Here is the lore of Tzeentch: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tzeentch?so=search
Read the "Shattering of Tzeentch"

"They hurled Tzeentch from a mountain peak, and he shattered on the ground into ten thousand pieces that flew across infinity, each shard metamorphosing into a magical incantation. Today, these ten thousand spells trip from the tongues of magic-users all over the world."
"This myth demonstrates that all magic ultimately derives from Tzeentch, and to cast a spell is to manipulate the very essence of the Changer of Ways."


While Magic itself is the energy of chaos, Tzeentch is indeed the god of magic. 

But his main role is the god of change. And what can bring the most change - MAGIC ! Because it changes reality itself without following its(reality) rules. 

That's actually even more reason to not have him be super-duper magic power, he's not complete he's shattered!

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 5:47:51 PM


You don't understand Tzeentch TC. Magic is just ONE of many aspects of Tzeentch. He's also change, manipulation, fate, knowledge, etc.




Mastigos#4130 wrote:Gelt has more schools of magic available to him. Generally a higher WoM reserve due to a ton of Hedge Mage ancilliaries + tons of Mage Heroes of all "core" magic types. Gelt has access to Cataclysm Spells. 


And Tzeentch can carpet bomb literally anywhere on the battlefield, snipe an entity from existence, surround his armies with magical barriers, magically steal settlements, his basic minions are literally casting spells as basic ranged attacks, and have more access to magic damage across his entire roster than everyone else. What's your point?


Mastigos#4130 wrote:

Why isn't there a magic-centric Unholy Manifestation for Kairos, by the way? We've got one for ammo, shield, and ranged damage but not magic potency? Why not replace the niche forced attrition skill with one that makes Kairos and friends better at magic? Just a suggestion

That IS magic! What do you think the blue and pink fires are when the horrors and flamers are attacking? What do you think the barriers are made 

from?


Mastigos#4130 wrote:
And finally: Lore of Tzeentch. I have way more respect for Lore of Tzeentch than I used to, but it still doesn't seem as powerful as, say, Lore of Vampires felt in WH1/WH2. 
It doesn't even feel as strong as some of the newer lores of Magic. 

Good. Vampire was OP as fuck and nothing should be that OP. Any other lores that over perform should be nerfed if it's proven that they are.

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 5:59:20 PM
I definitely find it weird that Tzeentch doesn't have access to more of the base eight Lores of Magic...but I think CA's rolling with Tzeentch being God of Magic in its rawest form.

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 6:50:56 PM

Oh, a theology question. Before we get to Tzeentch, a few key terms:


"Magic" is another term for Chaos energy. 


Magic in a "solid" form is called Warpstone. (Morrsleib is entirely made of Warpstone.) Magic in "gaseous" form, as a regional miasma that has settled and does not "blow about" like a Wind, is Dhar; sometimes Warpstone and Dhar are taken to be the same thing. Some have called raw magical energy "Aether". Aether would be neither solid, gaseous, nor liquid.


Magic subjected to a rational will and shaped for "good" is called "High Magic". A very advanced form of High Magic is presumably what the Old Ones practiced. Magic subjected to the will of one of the Ruinous Powers (sans Khorne) is Chaos magic, or simply "Chaos".


What imperial society calls "The Winds of Magic", that is, the Eight Colors studied by the Colleges of Magic founded by Teclis and Volans, appears to be a rudimentary form of High Magic. In other words, it is magic that has been broken down into a spectrum of Colors that are consequently more "manageable" for humanity, because humanity is not as adept at handling magic as Elves are.


Tzeentch is, among his other titles, the Lord of Magic. Miscasts are called by some "Tzeentch's Curse" (or "Gift"). The name Tzeentch, for what its worth, was originally invented by GW because the word sounded like a spell being cast. In lore, the name "Tzeentch" comes from "Tzeeneth", which has the root "tzeen", a word meaning "change, will to change", followed by the suffix for "lord, master", that is, "neth".


What is left ambiguous from the above data is how Tzeentch is "uniquely" the source of all magic. This is where the daemonological, or theological, speculation begins. If magic simply is Chaos, then this may seem to make Tzeentch somehow more essentially "Chaos" than his Brothers. And the lore does seem to point this way sometimes: his titles of The Changer and Lord of Magic are almost synonyms for the power of Chaos. Lore blurbs will also sometimes hint that Tzeentch is destined to the win the Great Game, because each action of his Brothers' - indeed, all actions - are said to merely further his own aeon-long and inscrutible plans. Nevertheless, similar things have been said about Slaanesh, whom the other Brothers fear more than they do each other.


In the end, it may be more helpful to apply a sort of Christian Trinitarian language to the Four Ruinous Powers, who are their own distinct personalities but are at the same time each essentially "Chaos". If this is the case, then what we call "magic" is merely one way of approaching the "divine essence" of Chaos so to speak, because in Warhammer Fantasy Chaos appears to be the most fundamental reality in the cosmos. To Khorne and his followers, bloodshed and violence is as legitimate way of exemplifying that essence as magic. So would it be with plague and disease with Nurgle, and sensuality with Slaanesh. So Tzeentch is indeed the Chaos God of Magic, if "Magic" is taken to be identical in status within the Chaos heirarchy as "Bloodshed", "Plague", and "Sensuality". Yet even saying this it is hard not to assume that Magic is somehow ontologically prior to these other three things.


Whether Chaos is meant to be read as the divine pleroma from which all reality springs is something the lore has always been fruitfully vague about. The greatest daemonologists in the lore probably believe something like this. Any "verifiable" answer to this question was probably lost in the Great Catastrophe, when the only reasonable alternatives to Chaos, i.e. the Old Ones, disappeared when all their works were consumed, or began to be consumed, by Chaos.


(I know this thread is actually just griping about Tzeentch's campaign design in WH3, but that griping does touch on issues that have been open to interpretation in the Warhammer lore for a long time.)

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 7:47:00 PM

Djau#5149 wrote:
I definitely find it weird that Tzeentch doesn't have access to more of the base eight Lores of Magic...but I think CA's rolling with Tzeentch being God of Magic in its rawest form.

Sorry, that's like saying "Britain invented the tanks therefore they should have all the tanks".

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 8:45:55 PM

GreenColoured#3418 wrote:
You don't understand Tzeentch TC. Magic is just ONE of many aspects of Tzeentch. He's also change, manipulation, fate, knowledge, etc.

On the contrary, I think I understand Tzeentch more than you do. For example, saying that Tzeentch is the god of "change" and the god of "manipulation" is essentially saying the same thing. And then you add "fate" -- when it would be far more accurate to say he's the god of changing your fate as the concept of "fate" or "fated to do X" is far from embracing change: it's denying change. You are fated to do something. Tzeentch says no to that - he is the "Changer of Ways." 

Knowledge? Only insofar that knowledge relates to trickery, knowing your enemy, and magic. Tzeentch isn't chasing knowledge for the sake of knowledge. It's for the sake of power through deception and magic. 

Tzeentch is the god of magic. That doesn't divorce him from being the god of "trickery" and the "changing of ways." As said aptly above, magic is change. It's taking reality and forming it to your will. 

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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 8:57:39 PM

GreenColoured#3418 wrote:
And Tzeentch can carpet bomb literally anywhere on the battlefield, snipe an entity from existence, surround his armies with magical barriers, magically steal settlements, his basic minions are literally casting spells as basic ranged attacks, and have more access to magic damage across his entire roster than everyone else. What's your point?

"Carpet Bomb" is an army ability that takes spellcasting to charge up. It's powerful against clumped up units, as are all Bombardment and Vortex spells. 
"Snipe an entity from existence" is probably the most hyperbolic nonsense I've heard in a long time. Not only does that army ability share the same power bar as said "Carpet Bomb" (which means you can't do both without sacrificing one for a period of time) but it's significantly weaker than a Comet of Cassandra and in no way, shape, or form is "sniping an entity from existence." 

Bringing up two army abilities that share the same meter without mentioning that they share the same meter is also kind of dishonest. 

Having "magical" barriers is part of his faction design. It has nothing to do with the topic. You may as well complain that Cathay gets the Harmony modifier and The Empire doesn't. 
Stealing settlements is part of The Changing of Ways and isn't a spell. Again, off topic. 
Having Exalted Flamers being useful isn't a strike against Tzeentch or the topic I created. They aren't shooting spells, by the way. It's a projectile that partly mimics Tzeentch's Firestorm, but saying that's a "literal spell" is as misleading. Maybe you should complain that Lore of Hag also has a spell that very much mimics Tzeentch's Firestorm, but is also a Vortex that doesn't hurt your own units when overcast. 

And your final point is hinged upon getting the Blue Scribes.

I think you're an Empire / Orc player who just wants to fight. 

Updated 21 days ago.
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22 days ago
May 26, 2024, 9:02:39 PM
Sorry, that's like saying "Britain invented the tanks therefore they should have all the tanks".

An actual god who focuses on magic and deception ought to be better than elves and men in the areas of magic and deception. 
I think you just don't like that. 

On the flip side, it seems you're fine with The Empire and Dwarves having extremely powerful artillery even though Tzeentch has none. Am I wrong?

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