This was a great patch, but Cathay really needs some help. with saytang getting nerfed and jades price increased, its even more difficult to play Cathay especially in dom. Personally i would really like to see the jade and jet lion, the moon bird, and the drums get some small buffs so they're a bit more usable, maybe just price decreases. Thanks again for the great update CA!

I don't feel they are weak on the battlefield and I'm sure they can afford paying more. The problem with Cathay are as follow:

1. Low growth levels. They get +10/+20/+30 growth from both settlement and growth building. It's one of the lowest in the game. Although money is good.

2. Low replenishment. They can increase it by 5% by technology and 6% from lord's skills. Thats not enough to deal with...

3. Bad climate preferences. -8% replenishment from unsuitable climate halves your replenishment. In each Cathay campaign there are some issues with that so you have to fight many battles manually. 

The changes are good so far. Saytang was OP as were the jade warriors for only 500 points. Now at 550 they are much better balanced.

Remember that jade warriors with halberds have also been lowered in price from 700 to 650 and are now more viable.

It was too strong a faction in MP and is now much better balanced.

I don't give an opinion on his performance in the campaign because I don't care.

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White-Paladin#3008 wrote:

The changes are good so far. Saytang was OP as were the jade warriors for only 500 points. Now at 550 they are much better balanced.

Remember that jade warriors with halberds have also been lowered in price from 700 to 650 and are now more viable.

It was too strong a faction in MP and is now much better balanced.

I don't give an opinion on his performance in the campaign because I don't care.

that might be true in Lb, tho other than windbow i dont think theyve been oppressive since harmon was nerfed, but not in dom cathay really struggles. giving Cathay a few more mobility tools to offset nerfs to their boxier stuff would encourage more interesting play in every mode. the lions being a little bit better in particular would offset some of the factions biggest weaknesses, like struggling to kill strong single entities squads in melee. and if one got and anti inf bonus and the other an anti large, that would especially give them interesting utilities. 

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

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DarkAgeRush#6950 wrote:

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White-Paladin#3008 wrote:

The changes are good so far. Saytang was OP as were the jade warriors for only 500 points. Now at 550 they are much better balanced.

Remember that jade warriors with halberds have also been lowered in price from 700 to 650 and are now more viable.

It was too strong a faction in MP and is now much better balanced.

I don't give an opinion on his performance in the campaign because I don't care.

that might be true in Lb, tho other than windbow i dont think theyve been oppressive since harmon was nerfed, but not in dom cathay really struggles. giving Cathay a few more mobility tools to offset nerfs to their boxier stuff would encourage more interesting play in every mode. the lions being a little bit better in particular would offset some of the factions biggest weaknesses, like struggling to kill strong single entities squads in melee. and if one got and anti inf bonus and the other an anti large, that would especially give them interesting utilities. 

It's not true in any game mode. I don't know why people insist on lying about how powerful Grand Cathay is -- or EVER was. The same people that claim(ed) that Jade Warriors provide too much value for their low cost, are usually the same people that claim(ed) that the Dawi need(ed) buffs to their infantry. Jade Warriors are nearly identical to Dwarf Warriors. How can two units be so close in stats and yet be viewed completely different? If the Jade Warriors were so OP (I'm so sick of that moniker being thrown around) then the Dwarfs should have been just as powerful as Grand Cathay before ToD. Dwarf Warriors cost 450 gold and have higher base armor, leadership, and melee defense while having a 55% missile block chance. Give it a rest, people. 

It's just gaslighting. Don't be mislead. 

But the dwarfs could never field cavalry, strong monstrous units, and use magic. That's what makes Cathay so over the top. They have a mixture of some of the best infantry, ranged infantry, and artillery in the game in addition to good cavalry, good flying units, and good monster units. Then they get a free buff to their units through harmony in battle.

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kissmydairia#7307 wrote:

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

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DarkAgeRush#6950 wrote:

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White-Paladin#3008 wrote:

The changes are good so far. Saytang was OP as were the jade warriors for only 500 points. Now at 550 they are much better balanced.

Remember that jade warriors with halberds have also been lowered in price from 700 to 650 and are now more viable.

It was too strong a faction in MP and is now much better balanced.

I don't give an opinion on his performance in the campaign because I don't care.

that might be true in Lb, tho other than windbow i dont think theyve been oppressive since harmon was nerfed, but not in dom cathay really struggles. giving Cathay a few more mobility tools to offset nerfs to their boxier stuff would encourage more interesting play in every mode. the lions being a little bit better in particular would offset some of the factions biggest weaknesses, like struggling to kill strong single entities squads in melee. and if one got and anti inf bonus and the other an anti large, that would especially give them interesting utilities. 

It's not true in any game mode. I don't know why people insist on lying about how powerful Grand Cathay is -- or EVER was. The same people that claim(ed) that Jade Warriors provide too much value for their low cost, are usually the same people that claim(ed) that the Dawi need(ed) buffs to their infantry. Jade Warriors are nearly identical to Dwarf Warriors. How can two units be so close in stats and yet be viewed completely different? If the Jade Warriors were so OP (I'm so sick of that moniker being thrown around) then the Dwarfs should have been just as powerful as Grand Cathay before ToD. Dwarf Warriors cost 450 gold and have higher base armor, leadership, and melee defense while having a 55% missile block chance. Give it a rest, people. 

It's just gaslighting. Don't be mislead. 

But the dwarfs could never field cavalry, strong monstrous units, and use magic. That's what makes Cathay so over the top. They have a mixture of some of the best infantry, ranged infantry, and artillery in the game in addition to good cavalry, good flying units, and good monster units. Then they get a free buff to their units through harmony in battle.

How can they have the best infantry in the game and have nearly identical units to a race that isn't considered to have the best infantry in the game? You're not making any sense. Jade Warriors with Crossbows are very similar to Quarrellers. The Dawi actually have more artillery options than Grand Cathay. Your arguments are hollow. Especially since you tried to pretend that the Dawi can't use magic. 

While the community was hyperventilating about Grand Cathay being so busted because they were so much better than the empire, I kept pointing out how very similar they were to the Dawi (a clearly more suited comparison). During the exact same time, no one was complaining about how busted the Dawi were. Meanwhile they have ACTUAL elite infantry. Celestial Dragon Guard are not elite infantry. Just because they're the best that Grand Cathay has to offer doesn't make them elite. 

The Harmony system is a very tired attempt to justify the unjustified outrage thrown at Grand Cathay. Very early on it was discovered that defeating their missile units was a simple and easily repeatable way of removing Harmony from the battlefield COMPLETELY. Your description of Harmony as "free" is extremely disingenuous. They're forced to play a certain style in order to get the buff. 

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kaiki#4128 wrote:

I want monks, including monk infantry, monk hero and replenishment from monk hero.

And Shi Hong, he has to come.

Afer they screwed me over with 4.2, they had better seriously knock the next DLC for Grand Cathay out of the park. 

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

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kaiki#4128 wrote:

I want monks, including monk infantry, monk hero and replenishment from monk hero.

And Shi Hong, he has to come.

Afer they screwed me over with 4.2, they had better seriously knock the next DLC for Grand Cathay out of the park. 

Yeah, ToD level is what we expect for future dlcs.

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

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kissmydairia#7307 wrote:

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

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DarkAgeRush#6950 wrote:

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White-Paladin#3008 wrote:

The changes are good so far. Saytang was OP as were the jade warriors for only 500 points. Now at 550 they are much better balanced.

Remember that jade warriors with halberds have also been lowered in price from 700 to 650 and are now more viable.

It was too strong a faction in MP and is now much better balanced.

I don't give an opinion on his performance in the campaign because I don't care.

that might be true in Lb, tho other than windbow i dont think theyve been oppressive since harmon was nerfed, but not in dom cathay really struggles. giving Cathay a few more mobility tools to offset nerfs to their boxier stuff would encourage more interesting play in every mode. the lions being a little bit better in particular would offset some of the factions biggest weaknesses, like struggling to kill strong single entities squads in melee. and if one got and anti inf bonus and the other an anti large, that would especially give them interesting utilities. 

It's not true in any game mode. I don't know why people insist on lying about how powerful Grand Cathay is -- or EVER was. The same people that claim(ed) that Jade Warriors provide too much value for their low cost, are usually the same people that claim(ed) that the Dawi need(ed) buffs to their infantry. Jade Warriors are nearly identical to Dwarf Warriors. How can two units be so close in stats and yet be viewed completely different? If the Jade Warriors were so OP (I'm so sick of that moniker being thrown around) then the Dwarfs should have been just as powerful as Grand Cathay before ToD. Dwarf Warriors cost 450 gold and have higher base armor, leadership, and melee defense while having a 55% missile block chance. Give it a rest, people. 

It's just gaslighting. Don't be mislead. 

But the dwarfs could never field cavalry, strong monstrous units, and use magic. That's what makes Cathay so over the top. They have a mixture of some of the best infantry, ranged infantry, and artillery in the game in addition to good cavalry, good flying units, and good monster units. Then they get a free buff to their units through harmony in battle.

How can they have the best infantry in the game and have nearly identical units to a race that isn't considered to have the best infantry in the game? You're not making any sense. Jade Warriors with Crossbows are very similar to Quarrellers. The Dawi actually have more artillery options than Grand Cathay. Your arguments are hollow. Especially since you tried to pretend that the Dawi can't use magic. 

While the community was hyperventilating about Grand Cathay being so busted because they were so much better than the empire, I kept pointing out how very similar they were to the Dawi (a clearly more suited comparison). During the exact same time, no one was complaining about how busted the Dawi were. Meanwhile they have ACTUAL elite infantry. Celestial Dragon Guard are not elite infantry. Just because they're the best that Grand Cathay has to offer doesn't make them elite. 

The Harmony system is a very tired attempt to justify the unjustified outrage thrown at Grand Cathay. Very early on it was discovered that defeating their missile units was a simple and easily repeatable way of removing Harmony from the battlefield COMPLETELY. Your description of Harmony as "free" is extremely disingenuous. They're forced to play a certain style in order to get the buff. 

You answered yourself. It was the Empire fanboys whining just as they did with Kislev. 

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Asamu#6386 wrote:

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

It's not true in any game mode. I don't know why people insist on lying about how powerful Grand Cathay is -- or EVER was. The same people that claim(ed) that Jade Warriors provide too much value for their low cost, are usually the same people that claim(ed) that the Dawi need(ed) buffs to their infantry. Jade Warriors are nearly identical to Dwarf Warriors. How can two units be so close in stats and yet be viewed completely different? If the Jade Warriors were so OP (I'm so sick of that moniker being thrown around) then the Dwarfs should have been just as powerful as Grand Cathay before ToD. Dwarf Warriors cost 450 gold and have higher base armor, leadership, and melee defense while having a 55% missile block chance. Give it a rest, people. 

Dwarf warriors don't get harmony. Jade warriors get 6 more melee attack/2 less defense and leadership with just the minimum harmony bonus, potentially 10 more melee attack and 2 more defense/ld with the maximum harmony bonus. Jade warriors also have an extra 10 armor (net 5 less than dwarf warriors) from standing still and more melee defense formation and have more HP and 20 more entities than dwarf warriors.

Granted, the nerf was overkill, and may have been completely unnecessary. They probably aren't quite worth 550, but they are better than dwarf warriors.

The other factor is Cathay having magic, monsters, and cavalry to act as hammers on their infantry, which are things Dwarfs lack.

Everything that you pointed out is 100% conditional. If their Jade Warriors move in order to avoid anything, they lose their bonus armor. Their LL has to be in human form and within range in order to generate the highest level of Harmony to their troops. You must have a Yin unit within range in order to even begin to worry about whether or not you can MAINTAIN Harmony. People never want to admit that maintaining Harmony is a major concern for Grand Cathay. It's treated like it's applied by default and is impossible to be removed thereafter. 

The Dwarf Warriors are what they are REGARDLESS of where there lord is on the map. They are not reliant on another unit in order to deliver the best version of themselves. There's something to be said about consistency. Not only do the have silver shields they have less incentive to move in order to avoid spells thrown their way because of their INNATE spell resistance. Not to mention their charge defense against large entities. 

They are not the SAME units. They are however very close to being the same. They have far more things in common than they do things that separate them-- from a battlefield role perspective. Yet no one claims that they are too powerful.