Hey there everyone, so one thing that's always kinda seemed a bit off to me ever since it was first revealed has been Cathay's magic system. Now don't get me wrong I love how Creative Assembly first thought up the system and how it balances so many different aspects of Chinese magical styles: Wu Xing, Feng Shui, Yin and Yang, and spiritual practices, and converts them in a way that they'd make sense within the world of Warhammer Fantasy and its Winds of Magic. Each Wind even got its own dragon embodying it and they became legendary lords and lore characters and it was all really, really neat.

With that said however, speaking in practical terms of how they're implemented the current setup sorta feels like a bit of a mishmash of concepts and ideas. Miao Ying is the Storm Dragon that conjures rain and lightning? Cool, why is the wind she embodies focused so heavily on plants and nature when in the lore Cathayans view it as the Wind of Water? Yuan Bo is the dragon of the Wind of Stone?, Master of the Meteor Winds and all that? Awesome...Comet of Casandora is literally one spell out of an entire lore, and he took it and mixed it with some other ones. Why would the Cathayans create an entire lore of magic around just one spell? And if it is "the Lore of Stone" why is it that Astromancers use the traditional wind and lightning spells and are in fact highly regarded for doing so by the Dragon Emperor himself? If its the Lore of Heavens call it that, not Stone. Unless of course you go ahead and make it a lore focused on Stones and Earth. Will Yin Yin use the "Wind of Wood" and have it be entirely Beast-themed and focused on summoning crows, growing fur, and throwing spears?

You see the issues with all this.

And I can understand the thematic connections implied: beasts live in the woods, the aspect of water is a part of Ghyran, Comet of Casandora is still a stone, etc.

But at the same time it just feels kinda like a stopgap I think. Like we went part of the way there and didn't go the whole way with the concept.

And that is what this thread is about.

While such an idea might not be implemented immediately, I for one would absolutely love it if one day Grand Cathay actually got its own Eastern Magic versions of the Lores practiced by the western world. Give each of their winds unique spells, make it a second page that can be opened to in the Tabletop book or clicked to in Total War's Spell Library, and have them be really special and cool. Make them feel like the Chinese elements and make it this amazingly unique and fun part of them as a faction and the fans will love you forever. <3

Now if it were up to me I would divide the magical lores of Grand Cathay into four main disciplines, as shown on the above chart:

Natural Magic

These are the five elements of Wu Xing, as represented by the five currently active dragon children watching over Cathay. They represent the natural world and the cycle of the elements. You might also notice a central element symbol. This would be the Wind of Chi, and it would be a brand new interpretation of the Lore of Heavens which I've split in half.

Instead of having Astromancers practicing the Wind of Stone and the confusion that causes, I've instead remade the original wind into one focused entirely on earth and stones. Its a true Wind of Earth that focuses on jade crystals and earth magic that Yuan Bo can properly call his own, while the original wind and lightning parts of the lore are now represented as energy manipulation instead. Chi magic users utilize the "vital spirit", the "breath" and "spark" of life within them and their surrounding environment through magical Taoist sorcery-like rituals. Astromancers are gone and have instead been replaced by Sages, wise and powerful court wizards and astrologers that represent Lao Tzu like Taoist mages and hermits. The oldest and greatest among them are said to live on mountains and to have discovered immortality, living for many centuries by tricking death. Some do so by substituting their souls with personal items at the time of their deaths or through other methods like fending off agents from the underworld or using life-extending talismans. Their ultimate goal is to attain Enlightenment.

This Chi Magic essentially interprets the wind and lightning of Azyr as an internalized piece of a person's soul, the essence that grants them life. Also called Qi or Ki, this magic is used as spells by Sages, as well as channeled internally by Monks to achieve great physical feats, medicinal healers to cure wounds, or a topic to be mused over by Cathayan philosophers. It is a magic of central importance within Cathay, and as such they carry the same favor that Astromancers currently do within the Empire.

As for the Lore of Earth, it isn't just Meteor Winds and comets anymore, but instead a discipline that focuses on the manipulation of Dragon Veins. Dragon Veins are currents of Chi (Azyr wind) that blow through underground caverns beneath the whole of the Warhammer world. Similar to leylines, these tunnels carry the Blue Wind everywhere from the homes of the dwarves to the burrows of Skavendom, before eventually releasing it back into the sky from whence it came. Only Cathayan wizards are truly aware of these veins and the power they carry within them. As the Azyr wind (or Chi) is carried through these tunnels, it can be manipulated from the surface to call forth all manner of defensive and destructive effects. Everything from coating the body of the caster's allies in unyielding stone to conjuring forth terracotta soldiers from the ground, the use of crystals of jade, and a variety of other skills.

They're based on the real world Feng Shui belief:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_vein

Alternate interpretations of the other Winds:

As stated above, the Lore of Life is now properly interpreted as the Wind of Water, capable of calling forth rain, vapor, pillars of water maybe, bubbles perhaps, waves, or other effects. Likewise the Wind of Wood actually uses things like trees, photosynthesis maybe, and other concepts closer to Ghyran but still distinct. Each of the other lores would also get new spells, with some inspiration possibly taken from their Wu Xing values. Furthermore, the Wind of Wood might also include some wind based spells, as wind is traditionally depicted as a part of the Chinese element of Wood. (The wind in the trees and all that.)

Fire: Energy, Heat, Transformation

Earth: Stability, Grounding, Foundation

Metal: Strength, Precision, Organization

Water: Fluidity, Adaptation, Wisdom

Wood: Growth, Flexibility, Expansion

With how each of these five cycle elements strengthen or weaken each other in Wu Xing, there's also the idea of a kind of "Spellcasting Harmony" system that could maybe be a thing as well.

With Natural Magic covered, the rest of the three disciplines are pretty similar to how they're shown in lore already.

The Spiritual Magics

These are the magical winds represented by the dragons who are currently dead or missing and represent the more spiritual aspects of Cathayan life, such as Light (radiance and purity?), Shadows (confusion and befuddlement?, possibly ninja stuff if the dragon for this one's chilling in Nippon somewhere) and Spirit (which seems to involve manipulation of the souls of beings or is in some other way tied to Shiyama and the Cathayan afterlife.)

Yin and Yang Magic

These are the mystic disciplines of Sun and Moon magic, unique blends of the winds crafted by the Dragon Emperor and Moon Empress that are the same as they currently are in the game.

Feng Shi

Cathayan High Magic in my depiction actually has little in common with the method used by the High Elves. Instead of trying to combine all the winds into one, Feng Shi instead focuses on balancing them according to strict and orderly values represented by trigrams. Like Chi Magic users they might also call upon Dragon Veins for energy (as Dragon Veins are an idea in Feng Shui), and their spells would include effects from a variety of different winds. Instead of mixing them all at once, they might instead use a little Fire here, a little Earth there, or even combine two or more individual winds for varied, less total effects. They could also perhaps summon familiars, as I kinda doubt that "Feng Shi Bo" elementals like the Onyx Crowmen weren't in fact crafted by Feng Shi sorcerers.

But what do you think? If you could reinterpret the Cathayan winds how would you do it? Have any ideas for unique cultural spells they could have? I'd love to hear them! (I'm partial to a Metal spell that summons and flings floating swords like Zhao Ming does in dragon form lol.)

Aye, GA seems to have developed their own way of interpreting China’s elements in accordance with the Warhammer World’s winds. Though I do fear that the mishmashed way the dragon’s magic feels currently will throw players off in both the Tabletop and Total War games should they remain in their current state.

China really doesn’t have a Wind/Air element at all like in the west. Instead air is primarily associated with Wood alongside the more standard tree and nature stuff. Fire has aspects of it as well (though more in a properties of the element sense than actual wind magic), and Chi is a form of internal “breath of life/life energy belief used in a variety of ways. But true Wind magic practitioners like the Astromancers? China doesn’t have those. It did have Astrologists, though again those were Taoist court wizards that also fulfilled other functions and have deep rooted significance in the region’s history and folklore.

(There’s also the issue of how it hasn’t yet been explained why the Wind of Stone (which again is full of primarily non-rock related things) is so highly regarded by the Dragon Emperor in the first place. The Lore of Yang has Earth magic as a part of it with the Stone Ground Stance, Jade Shield, and Might of Heaven and Earth spells, it just strongly feels like it should be more prevalent in the actual Stone lore itself.

It sorta comes across as like a half-fulfilled adaptation to me is all. You can say they see the elements differently in the lore, but unless that’s genuinely shown in the game itself it’s closer to fluff and something people can develop their own spells from. When you could easily go the whole way and make them feel far more like the true Chinese elements in practice imo.

I guess only time will tell what the future holds…