Since I play in every new patch vanilla first thanks to most mods not working, I'm immediately hit with the fact that ranged units are still way too powerful in this game. Even basic archers can burst down heavily armored and shielded units in absolutely no time. Started a Kislev campaign as Boris and even basic Kossars unleash so much damage right away that the enemy army is in tatters before it even reaches my frontlines. Basic archers should absolutely NOT burst down shielded Chaos Warriors or other heavily armored troops like that. Archaon wanted to have a go at me and his army just died to the relentless torrent of missiles pouring from my units. I repeat, from the basic T1 Kossars. Factions with a stronger ranged focus can basically win battles without even moving. Units with no shield and low armor are currently also basically unviable because even a Goblin Archer can just kill half the unit on approach. Nurgle is completely SoL.

Ranged units should not be the absolute MVPs in a Warhammer game who basically decide battles all by themselves. Three factors need to be adressed. Calibration range needs to be lowered so ranged unit don't have max DPS at max range. Reload speed needs to be lowered so there isn't a seemingly unending torrent of missiles pouring down. And lastly low tier archers should have ZERO armor-piercing damage. You want to shoot armored troops, get something above a Goblin Archer or Kossar.

Ranged units being that strong is also one of the main factors why battles in this game are often so short and unsatisfying, ranged units just kill too many units too quickly (alongside army losses kicking in way too early). Boris and Archaon clashing should not be a battle that's done in under five minutes.

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lordchance2#1568 wrote:
Having tested this I can only say it makes the situation much better, lower Calibration range, much bigger Calibration Areas, no or very low Armor-Piercing damage for most ranged units make the game better straight up. Missile units don't even get useless merely balanced by doing so.

Yeah, I normally play with a mod that changes these factors and now that this mod has been rendered unusable I have to play with vanilla settings and it's simply unbelievable just how OP ranged troops are.

I vaguely recall that originally ranged units were toned down between WH2 and WH3, did CA buff them up again? Because when I originally played Boris' campaign my missile troops weren't that massively effective.

WH3 nerfed fire rate by 10% compared to WH2. But there are other factors like this from this patch. 

Fixed issues with ranged unit's 'Fire at Will' stance by increasing the number of checks units make to start firing. They will now also prioritise firing over maintaining positional unit cohesion

https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_inf_crossbowmen%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D7978781633391378699&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_inf_crossbowmen%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D6009914752132233841

Wait I thought the Norscan starting army against Katarin had the throwing axe marauder hunter which is armor piercing not anti large? Or was that the Realm of Chaos starting army, it's been a while since I played IE Katarin.

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ToastingBread#6550 wrote:

Wait I thought the Norscan starting army against Katarin had the throwing axe marauder hunter which is armor piercing not anti large? Or was that the Realm of Chaos starting army, it's been a while since I played IE Katarin.

I think a very important change would be making ammo not start at full in every battle, but it should be replenished gradually each turn like unit replenishment. So you want to spam archers and destroy the enemy army before it reachs you? Ok, but beware of the second army that is comming right behind the first, you won't be able to do the same thing again, for a while at least.

I wish there was a mod doing this.

So the armor piercing ranged units being effective against an armored units is bad because reasons? Plus she starts with a winged lancers and a snow leopard, why would you let the low range armor piercing ranged unit get close enough to your front line to obliterate it?

TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:
There's practically no difference in effectiveness between those units right now. Every ranged unit simply obliterates whatever they start shooting at in no time.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

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ToastingBread#6550 wrote:

Mar 26, 2025, 11:57:40 PM So the armor piercing ranged units being effective against an armored units is bad because reasons? Plus she starts with a winged lancers and a snow leopard, why would you let the low range armor piercing ranged unit get close enough to your front line to obliterate it? 

 It didn't matter whether it was the hunters with javelins or axes, they both did insane damage.

Only in warhammer is throwing axes more armor piercing than grenades. 

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PoorManatee6197#6481 wrote:
Mar 26, 2025, 11:45:12 PM

I think a very important change would be making ammo not start at full in every battle, but it should be replenished gradually each turn like unit replenishment. So you want to spam archers and destroy the enemy army before it reachs you? Ok, but beware of the second army that is comming right behind the first, you won't be able to do the same thing again, for a while at least.

I wish there was a mod doing this.

But that would mean one ranged army trades for two melee ones which I think is a bad exchange rate. While I think gradual ammo replenishment is a good idea if only to encourage more thoughtful campaign gameplay, ranged units should be toned down regardless.

Basically, until Chaos Warriors w/ Great Weapons can walk (not run, WALK) across a non-armor-piercing archer unit's entire arc of fire and shrug off most of the damage, ranged units will remain overpowered.

And for armor-piercing units, like various rifle infantry, the armor-piercing projectiles are supposed to be counterbalanced by a much lower absolute damage value, requiring more volleys, and thus an infantry unit that runs at the rifle unit should take low-medium damage if nothing is done to impede it tying up the rifle unit -- that's not the case either.

So that's why my standard for this issue is whether or not a unit of Chaos Warriors w/ Great Weapons can operate without being at major threat from ranged units, except over extended periods of time. They're supposed to be these heavily armored juggernauts that are a huge threat up close and advance unrelentingly against anything, even without shields. Until that's the case again, ranged units will remain too powerful.

Yeah! This kind of nonsense has even found its way into real life too! 

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

eah! This kind of nonsense has even found its way into real life too! 

Buddy, knights in full plate armor were all but impervious to arrows here in "real life" and Chaos Warriors are supposed to wear armor stronger than full plate.

So take you smarmy comment and shove it.

And before you start babbling about Battle of Agincourt or something, the archers didn't shoot the knights, they shot their horses. The knights themselves were cut down in melee while slipping around in the mud.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

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Funzo#7954 wrote:

eah! This kind of nonsense has even found its way into real life too! 

Buddy, knights in full plate armor were all but impervious to arrows here in "real life" and Chaos Warriors are supposed to wear armor stronger than full plate.

So take you smarmy comment and shove it.

And before you start babbling about Battle of Agincourt or something, the archers didn't shoot the knights, they shot their horses. The knights themselves were cut down in melee while slipping around in the mud.

Firstly; stop spouting these pronouncements as historically accurate. There's no evidence or consensus that arrows couldn't penetrate plate armor. Not only is that an actual fact, but they don't even believe that the volley was the type of shot that was use in actual warfare. It to is a matter of debate. 

Secondly -- and more importantly -- I was mostly thinking about bulletproof body armor. It can stop certain calibers of ammunition but it still takes a physical toll on the wearer even though it didn't penetrate the armor. 

Lastly; it was a -- somewhat snide -- commentary on how missile based combat CLEARLY replaced melee combat at every turn. That's something that has happened throughout history.