A month or so ago we got a big and popular thread asking about power creep, and the results were pretty clear: power creep isn't particularly enjoyable.

That gave me the idea to ask a similar question about supply lines.

Supply lines increase the upkeep of all armies with each new lord recruited.

The values for this increase in cost have shifted throughout the Total Warhammer series, but the fundamental functionality stays the same.

To me this has never made sense as an incentive for building diverse armies or a counter-incentive against certain kinds of armies.

I've always seen it as something that prohibits me from using many armies with low tier units and winning through tactics, since the upkeep becomes so ridiculous that such strategic resource planning becomes unviable.

A particular example I got excited about recently was when I realized that Dark Elf Bleakswords and Dreadspears can get 60 armor from lord skills and tech, bringing them within reach of the armor values that Tier II frontline infantry possess, which made me interested in playing a campaign where I focus on frontlines made out of those cheap units, alongside the cheap but still lethal armor piercing Darkshards, and overwhelming enemies with numbers of lower tier troops who have uncharacteristically high armor for their cost.

But as with many similar ideas, the supply line mechanic dumps a bucket of water on my plans, especially on Very Hard, which is the difficulty I play on, since I want to be able to earn both campaign victory achievements.

Supply lines just grind you down for no visible reason. They don't increase challenge. They just suppress creativity in grand strategy, and often outright prevent actually fun activities, such as recruiting a fresh lord and recruiting a few units with him to defend a capital city garrison, since you have to be floating a huge amount of gold to do so without suffering severe economic hardship.

Am I alone in this? Does anyone actually see meaningful benefits from supply lines? Because all I see are downsides.

Supply lines are a bad mechanic but at the current level they have very little impact.

Something like supply lines are necessary however thought I'd prefer some kind of mechanic reducing income based on the size or distance of provinces from capital.

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lordchance2#1568 wrote:
Supply lines are a bad mechanic but at the current level they have very little impact.

Pretty much this. The concept is not great but eh whatever. 

It's not really a problem and is in some form necessary for economy balance. I'm afraid the game is at a point where it's no longer feasible to rework it completely, or maybe should I say - it's not high on priority list.

If I had my go at it I'd make it so each unit type has supply line for their own units so for example if you had n+1 armies full of archers the archers would start being way more expensive from other unused units like cavalry or infantry. Ideally the system would balance itself out on its own and force players to either pay up more and more for abusing the same units or start using other units kinda as if there was a soft unit cap without having a unit cap.

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
It's not really a problem and is in some form necessary for economy balance. I'm afraid the game is at a point where it's no longer feasible to rework it completely, or maybe should I say - it's not high on priority list.

FALSE.

As I said, Troy started with the supply lines mechanic. It was replaced with Administrative Burden with the myth update. CA could easily transplant the mechanic over, they just don't want to.

I don't see what kind of play they try to incentivize. Maybe they try to limit the number of lord-only armies..? I don't know... I don't really see the point, especially when the limitation is so little. I'd remove them entirely, and then - if needed - I'd replace them with a more thought-out mechanic.

Supply lines are an issue in that they are completely ineffectual and a bad system. They should be replaced by a system that actually impacts your ability to field armies and units.

It's of no impact whatsoever- you're drowning in money anyway, and every time they rework a race the design philosophy seems to be to shower the player with more and more unearned free money and resources, so supply lines are even less important.

They were a problem before.  Now they're fine.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
It's not really a problem and is in some form necessary for economy balance. I'm afraid the game is at a point where it's no longer feasible to rework it completely, or maybe should I say - it's not high on priority list.

FALSE.

As I said, Troy started with the supply lines mechanic. It was replaced with Administrative Burden with the myth update. CA could easily transplant the mechanic over, they just don't want to.

Everything from previous TW:WHs should've been an easy transplant, but it never was, it usually took additional months of work so just saying that copying/pasting a mechanic from different title is super easy isn't really true depending on what they'd want to copy/paste.

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
Everything from previous TW:WHs should've been an easy transplant, but it never was, it usually took additional months of work so just saying that copying/pasting a mechanic from different title is super easy isn't really true depending on what they'd want to copy/paste.

Nope. Troy was made with the same version of the engine as the Warhammer titles. They could absolutely port it over with minimal fuss.

They. Just. Don't. Want. To.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
Everything from previous TW:WHs should've been an easy transplant, but it never was, it usually took additional months of work so just saying that copying/pasting a mechanic from different title is super easy isn't really true depending on what they'd want to copy/paste.

Nope. Troy was made with the same version of the engine as the Warhammer titles. They could absolutely port it over with minimal fuss.

They. Just. Don't. Want. To.

You have no idea what you are talking about, but sure whatever makes you sleep easier. Keep telling yourself that everything is super easy, quick and big game corporation just hates making money out of laziness.

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
You have no idea what you are talking about, but sure whatever makes you sleep easier. Keep telling yourself that everything is super easy, quick and big game corporation just hates making money out of laziness.

No one is saying there wouldn’t be any work involved, but the work was done on a game that is branch off the WH2 engine which uses pretty much the exact same database and scripting structure. It’s eminently doable, just a matter of actually choosing to do it.

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Passthechips#4366 wrote:

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
You have no idea what you are talking about, but sure whatever makes you sleep easier. Keep telling yourself that everything is super easy, quick and big game corporation just hates making money out of laziness.

No one is saying there wouldn’t be any work involved, but the work was done on a game that is branch off the WH2 engine which uses pretty much the exact same database and scripting structure. It’s eminently doable, just a matter of actually choosing to do it.

And I'm saying that because of the potential amount of work involved this thing isn't probably high on the priority list for the devs even though they could rework it. 

Just so you remember the argument thrown at me was about it being "easy implementation". 

How are we supposed to describe something as "easy" at this point? Effortless? 

Looking back at WH1 to WH2 port, it was anything but effortless despite the games being some of the most similar in the entire franchise.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

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HesitantWizard#6268 wrote:
And I'm saying that because of the potential amount of work involved this thing isn't probably high on the priority list for the devs even though they could rework it. 

Ain't it funny how this excuse only ever comes out when people propose making the game less of a total farce? Sure demand 5000 new units and characters, all with unique rigs, animations and textures and their own special mechanics, but something to make the game actually worth playing beyond the midgame? Suddenly it's "too much work" for CA to do.

One, I don't have to give a flying eff how much work it would take CA to implement anything.

Two, you are ignorant of how much work implementing this would actually take anyway.

Three, ignoring the point that AB was developed specifically to replace SL in a game based on the same iteration of the engine as the Warhammer games won't erase that fact.

You are falsely believing that I don't want the game to be improved. If it was up to me and I could snap my fingers to make the company work on and improve TW:WH3 for the next 10 years - I would. 

I simply understand that supply lines are much less of an issue than for example - sieges or let's go basic - game optimization. We can all discuss how everything should be in fantasy land where everything is perfect, but unfortunately it won't be and there is only so much CA can further do and improve before they'll be forced to release next game in order to stay afloat and finish the work on WH3 allthogether. That's just industry standard, not every game is like Terraria unfortunately.