Vangiest should be a Legendary Hero for Coast. 

The problem with jade vampires is them being too different to any of the two vampire rosters. 

So, if you add them as a lord pack, you end with units that could be used by any LL but would look out of place, like having Vlad or Luthor use Jiang Shis or a Chinese vampire using western pirate zombies or western looking grave guards.

I think jade vampires would work better as a Cathay unit, like if they were some kind of internal secret sect that is tolerated by the dragons in exchange of whatever kind of service.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

Also, I find it weird that some people think that jiangshi would fit better in Cathay than in an Undead army.

Like, I get that they're inspired by Chinese mythology, but you guys get that they're, like, evil monsters in that mythology, right? They aren't allies of the Chinese people. It's not like dragons, which are revered, or even the Monkey King, who is a kind of lovable trickster. They're an unnatural creature to be feared and reviled.

It's like making an army based on Catholicism and having both angels and devils fighting side-by-side because "Hey, it's all from the same source, right?"

It's possible to confederate both Valkia and Azazel into the same faction under Archaon and Belakor, so angel + demon on the same side can happen, but I agree that I don't want Cathay to have vampires, they have a fairly full roster else and I don't feel i like the dragons would happily accept another powerbase. 

I am all for the Chinese Vampire Fleet idea, it comes up a lot and I like it. i also feel the nature of the Vampire Coast (seafarers based in various ports, who resurect their crew from whoever is at the bottom of the ocean) could quite easily include corpses and vampires from all corners of the planet, so I would welcome an expansion to their roster.

I see the Jade Blooded being pirates as very unlikely.

This is based on the apocryphal text we have for the Jade-Blooded. Which may or may not be accurate, but we have Harakhte as confirmed fleeing to Cathay, so it’s at least partly accurate.

In the Apocrypha how they’re presented is far from “vampire pirates”:

Harakhte was essentially a judge, and his lineage are styled as monarchs. Besides, the Jiangshi aesthetic has very little to do with being a pirate, and they are often displayed as bureaucrats.

They are also known for having living followers in addition to the dead they raise. I could easily see a pseudo Cathay + VCount mixed roster for Harakhte. 

Pocman#6295 wrote:

The problem with jade vampires is them being too different to any of the two vampire rosters. 

So, if you add them as a lord pack, you end with units that could be used by any LL but would look out of place, like having Vlad or Luthor use Jiang Shis or a Chinese vampire using western pirate zombies or western looking grave guards.

I think jade vampires would work better as a Cathay unit, like if they were some kind of internal secret sect that is tolerated by the dragons in exchange of whatever kind of service.

No stranger than Kostaltyn using Things in the Woods and Hags.

Passthechips#4366 wrote:

I see the Jade Blooded being pirates as very unlikely.

This is based on the apocryphal text we have for the Jade-Blooded. Which may or may not be accurate, but we have Harakhte as confirmed fleeing to Cathay, so it’s at least partly accurate.

In the Apocrypha how they’re presented is far from “vampire pirates”:

Harakhte was essentially a judge, and his lineage are styled as monarchs. Besides, the Jiangshi aesthetic has very little to do with being a pirate, and they are often displayed as bureaucrats.

They are also known for having living followers in addition to the dead they raise. I could easily see a pseudo Cathay + VCount mixed roster for Harakhte. 

There's a few problems with using the Apocryphal Suppliment as a source. One glaring mistake is that Harakhte in earlier sources was the Grand Vizier and Maatmeses was the fat corrupt Cheif Justice. Now we could say it's a retcon and Harakhte being the judge isn't a problem... That is unless you realize they're a bit more thought easter egg put into that name. I don't know who created Harakhte and Maatmeses, but I appreciate the though they put into them. If you want to do a deep dive, the names Harakhte and Maatmeses are very much suited the jobs of Vizier and Judge. In Egyptology, Harakhte is the name of the amalgamated Gods Ra and Horus whose symbol is the all seeing eye, as divine overseer/vizier. Maatmeses literally means "Born of Maat" Maat was the Egyptian Goddess of Justice.

Night's Dark Masters book had Harakhte as the Grand Vizier and sire of the eunuch sorcerer vampires in Cathayan. Maatmeses as the sire of mad vampire preists running around the jungles of Ind and the southlands.

Jumping around the Neferata novels Harakhte and Maatmeses are nowhere to be seen, replaced by Ankhat and Zuras, Ankhat very much correlates with Harakhte, being the Lahmian Grand Vizier and Neferata's right hand in statecraft. Zuras' job wasn't mentioned, only that he was a minor noble who was addicted to gambling, Zuras was killed by Alcadizaar.

Ankhat travelled to Cathay after the fall of Lahmia where he was hired as a general and seemed to be serving loyal until he was outed as a Vampire and forced to fee. Ankhat was last seen living the life of a Pirate when W'soran tried to recruit him back to serving Nagash.

So if Jade Vampires are put with VCoast it perfectly suits where the noval left Ankhat/Harakhte.

As far as Maatmese/Zuras is concerned, he could stay dead if GW have no plans, but bringing him back wouldn't be hard since Vamps never rely stay dead, and they could work that into the story of why him bloodline is mad. Maybe on his resurrection he had an epiphany and decided to take his job as a Judge seriously, but with Lahmia gone he founds is own cult in the jungles hence the Mad Blood Priests.

Alternatively if GW/CA wants to put them with Cathay that can also be done with simple lore explanations that Ankhat/Maatmese wormed himself back into Cathay's good graces and the Jade Vampires can live in the open and serve Cathay. They could even explain that the Dragons never had a problem with Vampires, that when Ankhat was initially hired then fired happened when the Dragons were still on their hiatus.

As far as Jiang-shi aesthetics goes... This one is a bit weird, they would have to redesign them to not use the classic look, because the classic look is based on Qing Dynasty officer court dress. Would be strange seeing Qing style Jiang-shi since GW's Cathay went with earlier Ming Dynasty period look. It would look anachronistic unless they changed the Jiang-shi into wearing Ming Dynasty officer dress which wouldn't be the classic look.

Tyrant#1234 wrote:

Passthechips#4366 wrote:

I see the Jade Blooded being pirates as very unlikely.

This is based on the apocryphal text we have for the Jade-Blooded. Which may or may not be accurate, but we have Harakhte as confirmed fleeing to Cathay, so it’s at least partly accurate.

In the Apocrypha how they’re presented is far from “vampire pirates”:

Harakhte was essentially a judge, and his lineage are styled as monarchs. Besides, the Jiangshi aesthetic has very little to do with being a pirate, and they are often displayed as bureaucrats.

They are also known for having living followers in addition to the dead they raise. I could easily see a pseudo Cathay + VCount mixed roster for Harakhte. 

As far as Jiang-shi aesthetics goes... This one is a bit weird, they would have to redesign them to not use the classic look, because the classic look is based on Qing Dynasty officer court dress. Would be strange seeing Qing style Jiang-shi since GW's Cathay went with earlier Ming Dynasty period look. It would look anachronistic unless they changed the Jiang-shi into wearing Ming Dynasty officer dress which wouldn't be the classic look.

They definitely wont go for Qing aesthetic, thats why they changed the jiangshi rebel icon.

I also dont want vampires in cathay faction. Throw them into vampire coast instead. Cathay already have "anti-cathay" entity which is the monkey king

Tyrant#1234 wrote:

There's a few problems with using the Apocryphal Suppliment as a source...

While this is all very much true, there's a pretty big problem with not using it as a source: it's the only place where the term "Jade Blooded Vampire" previously existed in Warhammer lore.

There are no others.

//

As 'Chips mentions, the reason people suggest Jade Blooded in Cathay is that said sole description describes them as using largely "traditional" Cathayan armies, "fleshed out" with raised dead. So a Jade Blooded LL, in the "established" apocryphal lore, makes the most sense with a Cathayan roster, supplemented with Vampire Counts units in the fashion of Arkhan or Alarielle.

(If what 'Darth meant by that comment was that it would make no sense for a Jade Blooded Vampire to be a Life casting generic Hero in the Cathayan roster, as I've seen suggested before, then I agree wholeheartedly.)

//

It's probably a moot point anyway - Andy's quote (read from the Cathayan Army Book) came off (to me) as nothing more than a single sentence on the nation's timeline. 

LordSolarMach#5538 wrote:
While this is all very much true, there's a pretty big problem with not using it as a source: it's the only place where the term "Jade Blooded Vampire" previously existed in Warhammer lore.

I'm fine with not using it then.  Just call them Jiangshi.

I think TWWH is already using "Jade Blooded" for Yuan Bo's Dragon-Blooded Shugengan anyway.

Main problem I have with the Apocryphal is the wrong assumption that the Bloodline founder was the Chief Judge of Lahmia and that wrong assumption informed the derived concept of the Bloodline. The name Jade Blooded would be the only thing I would keep from the Apocryphal, to me the Bloodline are Eunuch Sorcerers as per original description.

The Law theme better fits the Bloodline of Maatmeses, the actual corrupt Chief Judge of Lahmia.

As for where to implement Jade Vampires... So GW Jiangshi will be Ming aesthetic ratrher than more iconic Qing depiction, that settled.

They currently have Counts icon and are a Counts rebel subfaction... Which hopefully is a placeholder.

Assuming they won't get their own "Lost Bloodlines" faction and must be a subfaction of something already existing...

• Them being a Counts subfaction isn't ideal since most units are Old World Western themed and therefore an aesthetic mismatch, plus any future Eastern themed undead could be open to other Counts to use which again would be mismatch.
• Them being made Coast has the same problem, but less so cos Pirates, mismatch is more acceptable as ragtag pirate crews. Coasts also already has subfaction exclusive units, so if CA don't want other Coasts subfaction to have access to Cathay themed undead it could be limited to just the Jade Vampire faction.
• Them being Cathay, this fits best being wedded to Cathay aesthetic if lore is resolved that Cathayans are OK fighting along side undead, which we done know if they are.

The three above are the options assuming CA aint gonna create a whole new faction of Eastern aesthetics undead. Personally I prefer the Cathay route.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

I'm fine with not using it then.  Just call them Jiangshi.

I think TWWH is already using "Jade Blooded" for Yuan Bo's Dragon-Blooded Shugengan anyway.

The settlement of Weng Chang has the Landmark 'Temple of the Jade-Blood Sorcerers' for Grand Cathay.

This, in and of itself, seems like a mistake, as we've been told that Cathayans don't recognise Ghyran as the Jade Wind of Life, but as the Elemental Wind of Water, and our main example of a practitioner of the Elemental Wind of Water is a cold and aloof, steely and stormy woman who's seat of power is the most industrial city in the nation. Yet here we have the "greatest practitioners" of Life magic in the nation stated as being "Jade-Blood Sorcerers". It was amongst the reasons that I had previously speculated that Yuan Bo would have originally been designed as a Life caster, but I don't recall if there's actually been a stated connection. Or if there's been any reference to his descendants being called Jade-Blooded (especially now that it's been confirmed that Yuan Bo doesn't have any penchant for Ghyran).

//

As to not referring to Cathayan Vampires as Jade Blooded, and just calling them Jiangshi...

My opinion is that I'd like for there to lorefully be Jade Blooded vampires, along the lines of the Apocrypha (ie playing into the Jiangshi/evil undead bureaucrat motifs).

And then for there to also be Cathayan Vampirates. But I don't want the Cathayan Vampirates to follow the Jade Blooded/Jiangshi stereotypes - in the same way that Luthor Harkon is a Blood Dragon by line, but isn't a Blood Dragon in character. (ie Zheng Shih can technically be a descendant of Harakhte, but an atypical one, who does not conform to the bloodline's tropes.) 

I don't want a Jiangshi-based generic Lord/Hero for Vampire Coast. Nor do I want all Cathayan Vampires (re: Jade Blooded) to be pirates.

LordSolarMach#5538 wrote:
And then for there to also be Cathayan Vampirates. But I don't want the Cathayan Vampirates to follow the Jade Blooded/Jiangshi stereotypes

See, I don't get that.  To me, the Jiangshi are the vampires of the Far East.  So if you have Far East vampirates, they should also be Jiangshi.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:
See, I don't get that.  To me, the Jiangshi are the vampires of the Far East.  So if you have Far East vampirates, they should also be Jiangshi.

Depends on who sired them. 

On one hand you could have Jiangshi be the Jade-Blooded (who at least by the Apocrypha didn’t sure many new vampires).

On the other hand you could have Cathayans that were sired by another Bloodline, for example a Von Carstein like Noctilus. This could maintain a Cathay aesthetic mixed with a Vampire one without being Jade-Blooded.

Guys, you got it wrong.

The question shouldn't be about making the Jade Bloodline specifically a Vampirate faction. It should be "Could the next Vampirate lord be a Jade Vampire?" and the answer is yes.

We got a Von Carstein (Noctilus) and a Blood Dragon (Harkon) already, and those exists independantly from their original bloodlines. They're outlyers who set sails to make an empire of their own. Nothing stops a Jade Vampire from making her own pirate empire, independantly from the rest of the Jade Bloodline.

If anything, a playable Zeng Shih would be my personal most anticipated Legendary Lord.

Fossoway#5540 wrote:
If anything, a playable Zeng Shih would be my personal most anticipated Legendary Lord.

DarthEnderX-#6513 wrote:

See, I don't get that.  To me, the Jiangshi are the vampires of the Far East.  So if you have Far East vampirates, they should also be Jiangshi.

To me, jiangshi isn't just "is a vampire, and is Chinese". There are more specific tropes to it.

If Simu Liu starred in a shot-for-shot remake of Dracula, he wouldn't be a jiangshi.

If Ryan Gosling starred in a shot-for-shot remake of Mr. Vampire, he would be a jiangshi.

You could make a jiangshi pirate, but then you would be making an undead pirate in bureaucratic garb, marked with a paper seal, etc. And that seems (to me) like a strange addition to the Vampire Coast faction. Whereas something based on Chinese pirates, but with a Warhammer-vampiric twist, would be (to me) preferrable.