The Cathayan Conundrum

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:19:58 PM

Bear with me, this thread is mostly speculation, but based on some factual information:

- There's more Cathayan content left, and hints of Monkey Warriors and more (see blogs and interviews);

- Slaanesh is coming after Khorne (see the video blog from earlier this year);

- Three more Cathayan Legendary Lords are known to us (Li Dao, Yin-Yin and the Monkey King);

- The Slaaneshi DLC originally had space for one or more Legacy Races (see the old roadmap);

- Mo-cap and voice acting has been done for certain (Cathayan) characters/units (see *redacted*);

- CA is planning to open new parts of the map in 6.0 (see old Discord AMA, not sure if this is outdated information).


So, Cathay is still missing 3 important characters for future Legendary Lord spots: The Monkey King, Li Dao and Yin-Yin. They're probably the WH3 basegame race with the most DLC-potential left (based on these missing characters and the interviews). So, at least one more Lord Pack spot, probably even two. With one (Li Dao) maybe coming as a FLC Legendary Lord accompanying the Monkey King in its DLC, as it would make thematical and geographical sense to get them together (speculation; Not a guarantee).


Quite a few people, including myself, can see such a Cathayan character coming in the Slaanesh-focused DLC. Together with another race, like the High Elves (a Legacy Race), which still have some 8th edition units left which could be used, supplemented by Storm of Chaos and Forgeworld stuff. While other races, like the Dark Elves, seem to be missing such options in the same quantity. Vampire Counts will most likely get something after the Chaos DLC, same for Norsca, if the developer blog form September is anything to go by.


We know from certain *redacted* that Tigermen and a hypothetical new Legendary Hero have been in the pipeline for Cathay for a while now. Which prompts the question, will their time come in the Slaanesh-DLC? Or will they come afterwards? And will these units come with the Monkey King in some sort of Southern-focused theme, or with another character (like Yin-Yin)?


Having the Monkey King in the Slaanesh DLC would create a problem with the accompanying FLC, as the Masque of Slaanesh (or another character, but I doubt that) might be the the one and only option for this FLC-spot. As this would be similar to the other DLC setups, with all Monogod-races getting the FLC-spot (even if SoC's was a LH instead of a LL). Why is this an issue, though? Well, it would make more sense if the Monkey King (DLC) comes with Li Dao (FLC). Which I find unlikely to happen in this Slaanesh-focused DLC, as I think CA wants to give the Monogod races more playstyles and starting positions as soon as possible and this is the one opportunity to do so (remember; Nothing is guaranteed to happen).


If Cathay is indeed the WH3 race with the most content left, with Cathay getting one Lord Pack spot in the Slaanesh DLC, the FLC-spot going to Slaanesh, and the Monkey King coming later with Li Dao, then that leaves us with Yin-Yin as the prime candidate for the Cathayan side of the Slaanesh Lord Pack. Maybe even with those Tig... I mean *redacted* units.


This would make the Slaanesh DLC line-up as follows:

- Dechala (Slaanesh, DLC Lord, Maingame Monogod Race);

- Aislin (High Elves, DLC Lord, Legacy Race);

- Yin-Yin (Cathay, DLC Lord, Maingame Race);

- The Masque (Slaanesh, FLC Lord, Maingame Monogod Race).

- Leaving the Monkey King (DLC) and Li Dao (FLC) for a future DLC (maybe with Skaven? Who knows).


A problem I can find about this line-up is that the Monkey King is already quite a popular character and he and his Monkey Warriors have been hinted at for quite some time already. Which in itself may not indicate anything, but is still a bit weird. Another problem could be that CA doesn't mind separating Li Dao from the Monkey King, even though they would make sense together (plotwise, too), which would invalidate half of this post and could make the Monkey King a viable candidate for the Slaanesh-DLC, too. Or maybe CA goes for the Dark Elves and High Elves, still.


Even so, what do you guys think will be the future of the Cathayan characters?

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:25:29 PM

I feel like Monkey is the most anticipated but, the same could be said about Thanquol so, they may not be concerned about putting him on ice for a bit longer.


Slaanesh, HE and Yin Yin (plus new character)

Mk + Southern Dragon Vs Norsca Vs someone 


This could be the case although they could hit us with unique DLC

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:37:24 PM

davedave1124#4773 wrote:

I feel like Monkey is the most anticipated but, the same could be said about Thanquol so, they may not be concerned about putting him on ice for a bit longer.


Slaanesh, HE and Yin Yin (plus new character)

Mk + Southern Dragon Vs Norsca Vs someone 


This could be the case although they could hit us with unique DLC

Yeah, that does sound logical. DLC line-ups have generally been easier to predict the closer they are to getting revealed. But getting the Greenskins with Gorbad Ironclaw was a bit of a surprise for a lot of people, even though quite a few of them correctly guessed Khorne coupled with the Ogre Kingdoms. So, the third spot might indeed be the hardest to guess (what with the High Elves being very popular for the second spot).

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:39:45 PM

First off, I'd like to state that all three Cathayans can star their own LPs, with Li Dao ironically being the one with the most stuff known (Monks (units and characters maybe), Vermilion Birds and Nomads, plus the likely addition of the Incarnate of Fire).


Second, if there is to be a Cathayan in Dechala's (though it could easily be Masque as DLC considering Skulltaker) DLC, it would be MK. Yin-Yin makes little sense going against Slaanesh, as both the Cult of the Painted Skin has proved to be just another Tzeentchian cult (check the wiki on the unusual locations) and she doesn't have the same stake of territorial rivalry as MK would have with Dechala in Ind. Yin-Yin's enemies are Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Vampire Coast and Tzeentchian Beichai. She also makes zero sense fighting the High Elves as Fu-Chow is an immense cosmopolitan trade city with a large population of High Elves, who she would logically be careful with upholding good relations with.


Third, you mention Skaven together with MK. But Thanquol actually makes far more sense in the Slaanesh DLC. In 7th edition (p 28-29), he mounted a failed attack on the Gates of Calith in Khuresh, which makes him an excellent choice to have Aislinn face, if the Dark Elves are not an option do to having been already pitted in WH2. Thanquol would be the first LL placed in Khuresh, in the Warpstone Mine that is confirmed to be there:

HintKhuInd.webp.pngIts an excellent oppertunity to open up playability in both areas simultaneously. AND it would give MK the oppertunity to star in a DLC all his own later after DoW.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:41:29 PM

In the event that it is Slaanesh and the Monkey King, it could very well be possible that they sideline the Masque or Li Dao for a later release. For example having one release alongside the inevitable Dogs of War DLC. It wouldn’t leave Slaanesh worse off than Tzeentch.


If it’s Yin-Yin, then I think the FLC will be the Masque. Yin-Yin if not having specific beef with Slaanesh could have beef with the High Elves over control of trade routes.


I think of all the WH3 core races, Cathay is a shoe-in to get at least three DLC releases. Some content creators have been passing rumours (for whatever little that’s worth) that the Cathay armybook is rather large and so there’s possibly a lot of potential content left for them to go.

Updated 2 days ago.
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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:45:03 PM

JungleElf#8229 wrote:

davedave1124#4773 wrote:

I feel like Monkey is the most anticipated but, the same could be said about Thanquol so, they may not be concerned about putting him on ice for a bit longer.


Slaanesh, HE and Yin Yin (plus new character)

Mk + Southern Dragon Vs Norsca Vs someone 


This could be the case although they could hit us with unique DLC

Yeah, that does sound logical. DLC line-ups have generally been easier to predict the closer they are to getting revealed. But getting the Greenskins with Gorbad Ironclaw was a bit of a surprise for a lot of people, even though quite a few of them correctly guessed Khorne coupled with the Ogre Kingdoms. So, the third spot might indeed be the hardest to guess (what with the High Elves being very popular for the second spot).

When guessing a LL I always pick to main issues, how known/armybook but, also what can they do with this character? That’s why I imagined they’d bring in Malakai. If a remaining armybook LL is a bit vanilla then there’s a strong possibility they will dig deep in the lore to get something more interesting. 


I can see Yin Yin being a better option than the Southern Dragon due to a sea creature these and MK sharing units with the latter.


Although people are confident about a lot to do with these DLC, GBoGs seems sure it’s DE, HE and Slaanesh which I personally think is a long shot. I think Cathay has got a great chance but, you never know.


 

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:46:30 PM

If we get Cathay along Slaanesh I agree Yin Yin is more appropriate, particularly if we also get High Elves in this DLC as there's one loading screen quote where Yin Yin talks about the Dragonships. I know a lot of people are impatiently waiting for the Monkey King but I don't think it matters when he will come, he's likely going to sell like hot cakes regardless so I don't think CA is really concerned about releasing the most anticipated characters sooner rather than later.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:49:05 PM

TheWattman#7460 wrote:

First off, I'd like to state that all three Cathayans can star their own LPs, with Li Dao ironically being the one with the most stuff known (Monks (units and characters maybe), Vermilion Birds and Nomads, plus the likely addition of the Incarnate of Fire).


Second, if there is to be a Cathayan in Dechala's (though it could easily be Masque as DLC considering Skulltaker) DLC, it would be MK. Yin-Yin makes little sense going against Slaanesh, as both the Cult of the Painted Skin has proved to be just another Tzeentchian cult (check the wiki on the unusual locations) and she doesn't have the same stake of territorial rivalry as MK would have with Dechala in Ind. Yin-Yin's enemies are Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Vampire Coast and Tzeentchian Beichai. She also makes zero sense fighting the High Elves as Fu-Chow is an immense cosmopolitan trade city with a large population of High Elves, who she would logically be careful with upholding good relations with.


Third, you mention Skaven together with MK. But Thanquol actually makes far more sense in the Slaanesh DLC. In 7th edition (p 28-29), he mounted a failed attack on the Gates of Calith in Khuresh, which makes him an excellent choice to have Aislinn face, if the Dark Elves are not an option do to having been already pitted in WH2. Thanquol would be the first LL placed in Khuresh, in the Warpstone Mine that is confirmed to be there:

HintKhuInd.webp.pngIts an excellent oppertunity to open up playability in both areas simultaneously. AND it would give MK the oppertunity to star in a DLC all his own later after DoW.

Part of this argument fails, however, as we haven't seen rivalries at the forefront for quite a while now. Shadows of Change's campaigns were basically independent from each other, and Throne of Decay's one, too (even though the trailer had both Elspeth and Malakai fighting against Tamurkhan's forces). The DLC generally have some kind of theme (SoC's was agents acting from the shadows, ToD was about the battle for Nuln and the upcoming one seems to be about blunt savagery and bloodshed, above all else).


I also doubt that we'd see 3 more (4 total) Cathayan DLC-spots, as I think the Southern Provinces theme will likely be shared by Li Dao and the Monkey King (and not every province might have a big amount of unique units, as is the case for many spots in the Warhammer world). I think the theme Dechala, Aislin and Yin-Yin could share is one about naval power and voyages abroad, through mystical seas and continents.


Seeing the Skaven in the Slaaneshi DLC would indeed be quite a wild card, and an entertaining one, even though I don't think the Battle for the Gates of Calith is a good reason for Thanquol's inclusion.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:50:17 PM

Neodeinos#5871 wrote:

If we get Cathay along Slaanesh I agree Yin Yin is more appropriate, particularly if we also get High Elves in this DLC as there's one loading screen quote where Yin Yin talks about the Dragonships. I know a lot of people are impatiently waiting for the Monkey King but I don't think it matters when he will come, he's likely going to sell like hot cakes regardless so I don't think CA is really concerned about releasing the most anticipated characters sooner rather than later.

She merely talks about the name of the ships in a mildly arrogant way being a tribute to her. That is in no way an indication of conflict between her and the High Elves. Due to the cosmopolitan nature of her domains, including Fu-Chow's large HE population, she would be very friendly, if haughty and all, to them.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:51:55 PM

davedave1124#4773 wrote:

I am looking forward to super elite infantry builds for Cathay, I have a good feeling we will get Tigermen with the Monkey Warriors 

Yeah, Cathay could really use some specialised (elite) infantry units in the mix. They're quite okay on the monster-level, at the moment.


I also hope, that if we do eventually get Yin-Yin, that she has a (dual) start in the Southlands.

Updated 2 days ago.
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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:52:59 PM

TheWattman#7460 wrote:

Neodeinos#5871 wrote:

If we get Cathay along Slaanesh I agree Yin Yin is more appropriate, particularly if we also get High Elves in this DLC as there's one loading screen quote where Yin Yin talks about the Dragonships. I know a lot of people are impatiently waiting for the Monkey King but I don't think it matters when he will come, he's likely going to sell like hot cakes regardless so I don't think CA is really concerned about releasing the most anticipated characters sooner rather than later.

She merely talks about the name of the ships in a mildly arrogant way being a tribute to her. That is in no way an indication of conflict between her and the High Elves. Due to the cosmopolitan nature of her domains, including Fu-Chow's large HE population, she would be very friendly, if haughty and all, to them.

It's obviously a stretch but it's still something, CA did say that some of the loading screen quotes were hints.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 9:59:32 PM

I'd assume a Yin-Yin DLC would come with more gunpowder, Chinese inspired sea monsters, and maybe chaff infantry on the level of Black Ark Corsairs. The Monkey King DLC would come with Monstrous Infantry and mid-elite infantry from the monks and nomads on the Li Dao side if he is the FLC. I'm not sure what I would want first since both would be a lot of fun for Cathay.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:00:16 PM

JungleElf#8229 wrote:

Part of this argument fails, however, as we haven't seen rivalries at the forefront for quite a while now. Shadows of Change's campaigns were basically independent from each other, and Throne of Decay's one, too (even though the trailer had both Elspeth and Malakai fighting against Tamurkhan's forces). The DLC generally have some kind of theme (SoC's was agents acting from the shadows, ToD was about the battle for Nuln and the upcoming one seems to be about blunt savagery and bloodshed, above all else).


I also doubt that we'd see 3 more (4 total) Cathayan DLC-spots, as I think the Southern Provinces theme will likely be shared by Li Dao and the Monkey King (and not every province might have a big amount of unique units, as is the case for many spots in the Warhammer world). I think the theme Dechala, Aislin and Yin-Yin could share is one about naval power and voyages abroad, through mystical seas and continents.


Seeing the Skaven in the Slaaneshi DLC would indeed be quite a wild card, and an entertaining one, even though I don't think the Battle for the Gates of Calith is a good reason for Thanquol's inclusion.

Themes no longer have to include gameplay directives. And SoC was still a representation of the intense conflict between Tzeentch and Cathay. Then obvious ToD. The coming Khorne DLC is an excellent depiction of the conflicts between Ogres and Greenskins (Greasus's battle with Urk Ironskull, Golgfag fighting Greenskins working for Ungrim and so on).

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:03:55 PM

I fully expect Grand Cathay to get a lot of DLC. As it rightfully deserves.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:09:07 PM

TheWattman#7460 wrote:
Themes no longer have to include gameplay directives. And SoC was still a representation of the intense conflict between Tzeentch and Cathay. Then obvious ToD. The coming Khorne DLC is an excellent depiction of the conflicts between Ogres and Greenskins (Greasus's battle with Urk Ironskull, Golgfag fighting Greenskins working for Ungrim and so on).

Your own example shows that only 2 sides of the DLC need a conflict so High Elves and Slaanesh have the conflict while Yin-Yin is just there doing her thing. That is if Cathay is in the DLC to begin with. I still agree with OP that Yin-Yin would be the better choice if CA only does one FLC LL since both Masque of Slaanesh and Li Dao should be added and Li Dao only makes sense with the Monkey King.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:13:28 PM

TheWattman#7460 wrote:
She merely talks about the name of the ships in a mildly arrogant way being a tribute to her. That is in no way an indication of conflict between her and the High Elves. Due to the cosmopolitan nature of her domains, including Fu-Chow's large HE population, she would be very friendly, if haughty and all, to them.

Yin-Yin seems to have an ego, which also is very true of someone like Sealord Aislinn. Them having a spat over a perceived insult is far from unbelievable. Not to mention they both echo each other in being naval commanders. 


Dechala could fit into this herself by having a roster with a heavy Druuchi Anointed bent, which would somewhat represent the Dark Elves as well in all this.

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:21:58 PM

ToastingBread#6550 wrote:

Your own example shows that only 2 sides of the DLC need a conflict so High Elves and Slaanesh have the conflict while Yin-Yin is just there doing her thing. That is if Cathay is in the DLC to begin with. I still agree with OP that Yin-Yin would be the better choice if CA only does one FLC LL since both Masque of Slaanesh and Li Dao should be added and Li Dao only makes sense with the Monkey King.

Well Tzeentch is still Chaos, so Kislev would still be fighting them (even if it has been pitted against Khorne in the marketing). Even further though in ToD, Nurgle and Dwarfs are still a very valid rivalry, as they are basically Ku'Gath's nemesis race. The best LPs have rivalries across the board. Having a third wheel just for the sake of it isn't the best game design. Yin-Yin have far more pressing matters than just cruising in without cause.


Thing is, I am against having Cathay in the Slaanesh DLC. But if there has to be, MK makes far better sense, both because of his immediate popularity and with his territorial conflict with Dechala in Ind. If Li Dao is mandatory to come alongside MK and Masque occupies FLC, then Cathay shouldn't show in the Slaanesh DLC. Rather:


SLA v HE v DE/SKV/VC (fitting Neferata's Lahmians with the seduction theme of Slaanesh)/someone else

DoW

MK v NOR v someone

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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:29:46 PM

TheWattman#7460 wrote:

ToastingBread#6550 wrote:

Your own example shows that only 2 sides of the DLC need a conflict so High Elves and Slaanesh have the conflict while Yin-Yin is just there doing her thing. That is if Cathay is in the DLC to begin with. I still agree with OP that Yin-Yin would be the better choice if CA only does one FLC LL since both Masque of Slaanesh and Li Dao should be added and Li Dao only makes sense with the Monkey King.

Well Tzeentch is still Chaos, so Kislev would still be fighting them (even if it has been pitted against Khorne in the marketing). Even further though in ToD, Nurgle and Dwarfs are still a very valid rivalry, as they are basically Ku'Gath's nemesis race. The best LPs have rivalries across the board. Having a third wheel just for the sake of it isn't the best game design. Yin-Yin have far more pressing matters than just cruising in without cause.


Thing is, I am against having Cathay in the Slaanesh DLC. But if there has to be, MK makes far better sense, both because of his immediate popularity and with his territorial conflict with Dechala in Ind. If Li Dao is mandatory to come alongside MK and Masque occupies FLC, then Cathay shouldn't show in the Slaanesh DLC. Rather:


SLA v HE v DE/SKV/VC (fitting Neferata's Lahmians with the seduction theme of Slaanesh)/someone else

DoW

MK v NOR v someone

Well, Slaanesh is still Chaos, too. And Cathay fights against Chaos, a lot. The High Elves also have something against Slaanesh, and both them and Cathay could be the 'Malakai teaming up with Elspeth' of this DLC. Even sharing the same, maritime, theme.

Updated 2 days ago.
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2 days ago
Oct 30, 2024, 10:36:54 PM

I'm probably never going to understand why Li Dao is considered a throw away Legendary Lord. We know more about Li Dao than we do about The Sea Dragon and the Monkey King COMBINED, yet he is considered as an afterthought. His back and forth interactions with the Monkey King are not his defining characteristic. His contempt for his own station, and his jealousy over the Storm Dragon's station are far more complex than some interactions with the Monkey King. 


The notion that Li Dao and the Monkey King should arrive in the game at the same time is nearsighted and one that I would like to see avoided. I personally, would introduce the Monkey King before Li Dao. It would give him plenty of room to stretch his legs and be the impact player that he is described as being. It would also allow for Balthasar Gelt to remain in the Southern Provinces for a while longer. 

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