Ulthuan. What else could it be right? Dark Elves campaign is about destroying the High elves and Vice versa. But what could it be beyond that?

It is quite certain every Culture or a Nation in the Warhammer develops certain ideologies that puts them on the map, whether it is bringing back the Old ways, Raiding to impress the Chaos Gods or screaming Waaagh and punching some gitz. These Ideologies carries the campaign mechanics of every Faction and truly makes them feel unique in their playthroughs even without looking at their actual Units. 

However while the Dark Elves have their Slavery and Ark Mechanics to truly symbolize their ideals, The High Elves seem to only have its Influence mechanic. 

Sure it's bare minimum but it at least guides us closer towards what the High Elves truly stand for in such a War Driven setting. Diplomacy. I know it sounds outrageous to even suggest it but wouldn't it make their campaign feel more engaging if it was guided by anything else other than self preservation and destroying your evil counterparts? The High Elves stand for so much more. They used to be the most advanced civilization and surely before they were crumbled they had other ideals and goals than just survival?

High Elves dabbled in Trade, Education and Diplomacy quite often in the Lore, The Empire has Teclis to thank for its many College educational lores among other things.

Speaking of Teclis in his Campaign he goes even further into this belief of diplomacy unlike his other Elven counterparts since as an Ambassador he gets a Diplomatic buff with other Races. Picking him as my first Warhammer 2 Campaign it truly looked like it was going to be a challenging campaign, trying to use diplomacy in a game literally called Warhammer. Suffice to say it was one of the most fun campaigns I've had but it really lacked something. Most of my interactions with other races seemed very linear. Exanging the Influence points seemed like a magical manipulation, the kind Tzeentch uses nowadays making the Influence mechanic fade by comparison. The one mechanic that has made their campaign truly a unique experience that resonated with their race has made me realize High Elves don't really play enough like a Diplomatic Faction, Their goal is to Recapture Ulthuan and exterminate the Dark Elves, beyond that they have no further Goals. Yet Teclis is an Ambassador for a reason, His true strength isn't just that he is a Loremaster with a ton of spells, but that he is an Ambassador with countless books no other Loremaster could have about every Race. He truly wants to educate and unite the lizardmen near him despite his tough start position. Wouldn't it make his campaign so much more Unique however if he had more options to interact with other Races? Some form of Dilemmas or other Race specific objectives that would net you benefits with other factions, maybe even more diplomatic choices in negation screen themselves? Uniting the other races against Chaos seems like perfect for him.

High Elves despite their destruction still views themselves as a greater race. This Denial further adds to their arrogance and their ideals of Duty to spread Education, Lore and other Civilized behavior to other Nations. While some more Noble Elves stay on Ulthuan and look down on other races, Other Elves have a much larger plan for the world beyond. Truly eradicating chaos by uniting the world and bringing everyone up to their civilized level. If we wouldn't have that as a new Long victory campaign at least it would benefit the High Elf campaign to have a more engaging diplomatic mechanic on the side as you destroy Dark Elves and reclaim Ulthuan. a Mechanic that would give us the the illusion of doing something bigger for the world than just the Ttzeenchian influence mechanic. Wood Elves grow back the trees while the High Elves intend to bring peace to the world through many different diplomatic actions and buffs based on the Race you are dealing with. Imagine if High Elves had more options for every race in ways it can influence them outside of just dumping points

oh also Phoenix Court mod definetly should come into the High Elf Rework since it perfectly captures their Ulthuan politics conflict

I only hope their buildings don`t get rewoked like the dwarves where growth becomes in line with other races.

Give them really bad growth and restrict how quickly they can build armies with terrible replenishment. Elder races need not be able to leverage their wealth 1:1 into military power, that has been a severe design failure ever since Warhammer 1.

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

Give them really bad growth and restrict how quickly they can build armies with terrible replenishment. Elder races need not be able to leverage their wealth 1:1 into military power, that has been a severe design failure ever since Warhammer 1.

Why? Elves are a superpower in the WH world and Dwarves are at the peak of their power since the War of The Beard (Age of Gold ----> Age of Silver). We could do what you suggest ... as long as Skaven have terrible misfires on their weapons, Greenskins have infighting, Vampire armies instantly die when the Lord dies, Slann are active for 1-2 turns and meditate on the great plan/sleep for 20. so on and so forth.

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saj1987#4378 wrote:

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

Give them really bad growth and restrict how quickly they can build armies with terrible replenishment. Elder races need not be able to leverage their wealth 1:1 into military power, that has been a severe design failure ever since Warhammer 1.

Why? Elves are a superpower in the WH world and Dwarves are at the peak of their power since the War of The Beard (Age of Gold ----> Age of Silver). We could do what you suggest ... as long as Skaven have terrible misfires on their weapons, Greenskins have infighting, Vampire armies instantly die when the Lord dies, Slann are active for 1-2 turns and meditate on the great plan/sleep for 20. so on and so forth.

High growth for all races is really bad, the dwarves didn't need higher growth or earlier unit recruitment, now they've been powercreeped and are just as samey as other races. It just compounds on the game being too fast, too cramped and lastly ending by turn 20.

Growth needs to be toned down across all races anyway, player can reach endgame by turn 30-40 and AI just can't keep up at all.

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dogoska#1535 wrote:

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saj1987#4378 wrote:

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TainBoCuailinge#8335 wrote:

Give them really bad growth and restrict how quickly they can build armies with terrible replenishment. Elder races need not be able to leverage their wealth 1:1 into military power, that has been a severe design failure ever since Warhammer 1.

Why? Elves are a superpower in the WH world and Dwarves are at the peak of their power since the War of The Beard (Age of Gold ----> Age of Silver). We could do what you suggest ... as long as Skaven have terrible misfires on their weapons, Greenskins have infighting, Vampire armies instantly die when the Lord dies, Slann are active for 1-2 turns and meditate on the great plan/sleep for 20. so on and so forth.

High growth for all races is really bad, the dwarves didn't need higher growth or earlier unit recruitment, now they've been powercreeped and are just as samey as other races. It just compounds on the game being too fast, too cramped and lastly ending by turn 20.

So you want them to be back to being worse than other races? I'm all for balancing but let's work on this premise then : Dwarves are not the strongest race in the game (they are strong, just not the strongest). Before we get to balancing the not-the strongest race how about we take a look at the races that are actually stronger?  <caugh> magic, better artillery, hordes of cheap chaff, excellent malee front line, flying cows, green for all climates <caugh> nukes, chaff, monsters,  ambush stance, best artillery <caugh>

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Enforest#2212 wrote:

Growth needs to be toned down across all races anyway, player can reach endgame by turn 30-40 and AI just can't keep up at all.

+1

The growth and character experience changes from WH2 to WH3 weren’t good. Some races needed changes, not all of them.

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Passthechips#4366 wrote:

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Maedrethnir#1968 wrote:

4. The Great Vortex & Waystones restoration. Players would preserve the Waystone network and reduce the presence of Chaos in the world. The stronger the Great Vortex the weaker Winds of Magic become, except for those who rule over it. Chaos races would benefit from destroying Waystones and unbinding the Great Vortex.

I like all of your other suggestions, but honestly this would be cool as a global mechanic. 

Ulthuan settlements are naturally Waystones and the more they are owned by Chaos factions the stronger chaos gets with rifts appearing in the world after a certain point. Incentivizes Chaos to capture, and Order to defend.

Maybe Elf factions could improve Vortex strength with a special building only they can build while other Order factions maintain a status quo. Lizardmen being able to boost numbers up in their own settlements by building up the Geomantic Web.

Agree I do!

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Maedrethnir#1968 wrote:

Jonasfull#5486 wrote:
They used to be the most advanced civilization and surely before they were crumbled they had other ideals and goals than just survival?

Jonasfull#5486 wrote:
High Elves despite their destruction still views themselves as a greater race.

The Asur continue to be the greatest people, albeit slowly fading away.

That being said, Phoenix King Finubar should be the Legendary Lord dedicated to the ways of diplomacy. From the Cripple I expect larger focus on being the High Loremaster, which entails magical supremacy and training of Saphery-themed units.

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As for High Elves interactions with the lesser races, I do see potential in that. The third position on my list of loose ideas:

High Elves rework in order of importance: 

1. Ulthuan is ruled by the Twin Thrones, the Phoenix King and the Everqueen. Both hold their own courts which rival with each other. Both give importance to different spheres of rulership: Court of the Phoenix King - war-like and expansionist Court of the Everqueen - peaceful and introverted

 Both courts would offer different bonuses through progress based on favoured actions. For example, felling enemies would award points with CotPK, while keeping high Public Order would benefit standing with CotE.

 The player would participate in fights with NPCs over positions in both courts, balancing their standing. This is what dillemmata system should revolve around. It could work similar to Pharaoh's Royal Court or Chaos Dwarfs's Tower of Zharr. Of course, it wouldn't be possible to dethrone the Phoenix King and the Everqueen. Alarielle (and Finubar in case he becomes playable) should have unique interactions with these mechanics.

It should be possible to use influence to affect diplomacy, forge and break alliances, maneuver allies and enemies into wars. 

2. The Ten Kingdoms system akin to Empire's Imperial Authority and Fealty. While the Asur do fight with each other in the lore, it makes little sense for them to murder each other in order to unite. Allow players to build relationships between the kingdoms with the use of actions and dillemmata. Give them special RoRs for achieving certain goals, for example SEM White Lion for forging bond with Chrace. 

3. Naval caravans & Elftowns. Players would establish Elftowns in port cities and upgrade them by completing caravan missions. Upgrades affecting host settlement would require additional influence cost. Elftowns would generate influence, open better allied recruitment, provide greater income, and maybe allow to affect choice of buildings made by NPC factons. Protecting sea lanes would increase their stability rating and increase benefits from caravans. Failing the task would do the opposite. 

4. The Great Vortex & Waystones restoration. Players would preserve the Waystone network and reduce the presence of Chaos in the world. The stronger the Great Vortex the weaker Winds of Magic become, except for those who rule over it. Chaos races would benefit from destroying Waystones and unbinding the Great Vortex.

 In that case i really hope we get Funibar as a Legendary Lord with these High Elf reworks you mentioned earlier, Maybe bonuses for being allies with certain races or at least more choices for Funibar on how to treat them diplomatically?

HE really deserve an in depth Court and Intrigues mechanic based on Pharao Dynasties.

Teclis should get an Artefact hunt mechanic similar to Thoreks Ancestor Items. 

HE is really in a good place; they need no major overhaul. Just an LL perhaps and a few LHs to people the faction for us lore freaks.

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Lampros73#2587 wrote:

HE is really in a good place; they need no major overhaul. Just an LL perhaps and a few LHs to people the faction for us lore freaks.

They need an overall faction mechanic focusing on Ulthuan politics or trade. What is Tyrion's or Teclis' machanic? Existing? Like literally what is the point of playing Tyrion when you can just confederate him and have actually something to do?

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Lampros73#2587 wrote:

HE is really in a good place; they need no major overhaul. Just an LL perhaps and a few LHs to people the faction for us lore freaks.

I think the proble with HE is the technology restrictions you end snowballing before you get the second military line.

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Lampros73#2587 wrote:

HE is really in a good place; they need no major overhaul. Just an LL perhaps and a few LHs to people the faction for us lore freaks.

They are not. They have no unique mechanics and are as vanilla as thge LM. They need a major update with bespoke mechanics.