So why are cathay cannons soooo much better than everyone elses? 

Is it the fire damage? is it the animations? is it the harmony bonus? Do they have more aoe or something? 

They just seem to out perform every other cannon in the game by a mile! 

My fave unit is cannons and still nothing compares to shogun 2 cannons they were insane bro! 

Dwarf flame cannon is okay but still nothing on cathays as they out range and fire them. 

Why are they so good? Is it lore reasons? or do all other cannons need a buff? 

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:
My fave unit is cannons and still nothing compares to shogun 2 cannons they were insane bro! 

The ones from FotS? Because the cannons in the base campaigns were garbage. 

Also the ones from FotS were insanely OP. And because CA cheated in favor of the player as always, the AI never recruited much if any of them, so once you had 3-4 in your army you could never lose a battle again.

No wonder you like that. 

Accuracy, probably. How else could a artillery focused race compete. 

Harmony bonus.

Maybe there is a height factor, how do they compare to Warp ligthning cannons?

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Data5#9904 wrote:

Harmony bonus.

Maybe there is a height factor, how do they compare to Warp ligthning cannons?

Miles better! So height = mechanics basically.

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based? 

Harmony increases fire rate but nothing else.

Id love for dwarf and empire to be on par as i hate rocket arty i love the pew pew pew.

PCC are better than warp cannons by a mile which is a shame as i love warp cannons but PCC aoe is crazy good another top qual arty 

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Dwarfs cannons do nothing compared to cathay and dwarf end game is low range which ends up useless as they end up not being able to shoot while cathay have mega long range with tech and skills.

Grudge throwers end up better than dwarf cannons which is such a shame as i love cannons

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:
Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Here you go.

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Dwarfs cannons do nothing compared to cathay and dwarf end game is low range which ends up useless as they end up not being able to shoot while cathay have mega long range with tech and skills.

Grudge throwers end up better than dwarf cannons which is such a shame as i love cannons

Maybe not, but whatever minimal damage Cannons do, the rest of Dwarf roster can clean up easily, because they have a huge choice of artillery and also better infantry than Cathay. If all you want is damage, then you can always stack Master Engineers to amp it.

Cathay doesn't have as many good choices imo, so cannons being the uber unit for everything while being cost effective is kind of ok. 

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Passthechips#4366 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:
Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Here you go.

Yeah ive checked that but that doesn't give anything away as you can see the stats on their are all the same so they should all perform the same yet they don't.

The only difference is the flame damage? So is that it? 

I mean you can setup a test in 2 secs and see the cathay cannons even without harmony far out perform all other cannons in the game.

So something else is causing this difference 

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Dwarfs cannons do nothing compared to cathay and dwarf end game is low range which ends up useless as they end up not being able to shoot while cathay have mega long range with tech and skills.

Grudge throwers end up better than dwarf cannons which is such a shame as i love cannons

Maybe not, but whatever minimal damage Cannons do, the rest of Dwarf roster can clean up easily, because they have a huge choice of artillery and also better infantry than Cathay. If all you want is damage, then you can always stack Master Engineers to amp it.

Cathay doesn't have as many good choices imo, so cannons being the uber unit for everything while being cost effective is kind of ok. 

I love cathay infantry and their ranged units are very strong. 

Dwarf have no cav but gyros are very good these days while lanterns are totally pointless! Still not tuned yet. 

But cathay have crane gunners with are insane and shred dwarfs.

Dwarfs are basically useless vrs cathay as cathay have counters to everything they have. Cathay arty out ranges dwarf so much they can snipe all their arty without retaliation.

Cathay also have wizards. 

Cathay infantry is so tanky and has super morale they normally fight to the death even the peasants are good especially for price.

Tier 2 halberds just solid af all rounders while dwarfs have no al infantry bar slayers which suck at holding the line. 

Id overall say cathay is superior than dwarfs. Dwarfs also lack big aoe where cathay has arty, flying arty, spells and grenades now! 

Its hard to say what dwarfs have that they dont have better? Better infantry? Celestial guards are tier 4 and anti large also... hammerers maybe beat them but im not actually sure and I doubt its a solid win if they do and the hammeres would lose vrs any large.

Ofc the game is about complete composition anyway but that's my point cathay just do everything better than dwarfs and maybe this is power creep as its a way newer faction.

Cathay has better infantry than empire but weaker cav. Better arty but on par wizards. Weaker heroes and dwarf have better heroes too. But cathay is new a solid hero in the future hopefully. 

I just feel like I can build 6 halberds as cathay and they will hold vrs anything as the rest of my army will deal with anything that can overwhelm them and they are much better than empire infantry who just melt bar greatswords but then no Al same issue as dwarfs. 

I mean I love playing all 3 factions and kislev but cathay are just easy mode from start to finish. 

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Dwarfs cannons do nothing compared to cathay and dwarf end game is low range which ends up useless as they end up not being able to shoot while cathay have mega long range with tech and skills.

Grudge throwers end up better than dwarf cannons which is such a shame as i love cannons

Maybe not, but whatever minimal damage Cannons do, the rest of Dwarf roster can clean up easily, because they have a huge choice of artillery and also better infantry than Cathay. If all you want is damage, then you can always stack Master Engineers to amp it.

Cathay doesn't have as many good choices imo, so cannons being the uber unit for everything while being cost effective is kind of ok. 

I love cathay infantry and their ranged units are very strong. 

Dwarf have no cav but gyros are very good these days while lanterns are totally pointless! Still not tuned yet. 

But cathay have crane gunners with are insane and shred dwarfs.

Dwarfs are basically useless vrs cathay as cathay have counters to everything they have. Cathay arty out ranges dwarf so much they can snipe all their arty without retaliation.

Cathay also have wizards. 

Cathay infantry is so tanky and has super morale they normally fight to the death even the peasants are good especially for price.

Tier 2 halberds just solid af all rounders while dwarfs have no al infantry bar slayers which suck at holding the line. 

Id overall say cathay is superior than dwarfs. Dwarfs also lack big aoe where cathay has arty, flying arty, spells and grenades now! 

Its hard to say what dwarfs have that they dont have better? Better infantry? Celestial guards are tier 4 and anti large also... hammerers maybe beat them but im not actually sure and I doubt its a solid win if they do and the hammeres would lose vrs any large.

Ofc the game is about complete composition anyway but that's my point cathay just do everything better than dwarfs and maybe this is power creep as its a way newer faction.

Cathay has better infantry than empire but weaker cav. Better arty but on par wizards. Weaker heroes and dwarf have better heroes too. But cathay is new a solid hero in the future hopefully. 

I just feel like I can build 6 halberds as cathay and they will hold vrs anything as the rest of my army will deal with anything that can overwhelm them and they are much better than empire infantry who just melt bar greatswords but then no Al same issue as dwarfs. 

I mean I love playing all 3 factions and kislev but cathay are just easy mode from start to finish. 

Dwarfs have all round better infantry, because they are tankier and deal more damage. They are more specialised for melee engagements than Cathay, while also having a better selection of weapon teams. Trollhammers and Irondrakes are really good. Slayers are meant to deter flanking units and they do that pretty well, so if Cathay would try to exploit aerial space they could always punish them with standard Slayer variants and this is fine imo. If we would talk specifically about Dwarf vs Cathay infantry then Dwarfs would own Cathay in everything. Dwarfs' lack of BvL units doesn't make them weak against large units, because they have a large selection of stuff to hamper then, like Runesmiths' runes and combined arms of shooters with small arm missile units, artillery and gyros. Although, yeah, if Dwarfs lose their defensive advantage when artillery is sniped off, it's harder for them to win those battles I guess and Crane Gunners being a thing is also a large detriment.

Dwarfs should be better than Cathay defensively, especially if Cathay has fast flanking units and monsters. I don't think buffing cannons to match Grand Cannons is the way to go though, because Cathay has a bazillion of buffs, so that's a headache to match like for like. I think CA should overhaul the Zhufbar 42 pounders to be more effective in destroying artillery pieces and/or killing off models. It's a range-free army ability that's kind of redundant, but would be a hard counter to artillery units and weapon teams, since it's range-free. So, you could snipe the units from afar and then have a defensive engagement that you want. I would say just play more offensively with Rangers, but that's probably suicidal against Cathay xD

Monstrous Impact for Cathayan cannons when?

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

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KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:

I mean test them they destroy every other arty in the game... and to say an artillyer focused race? ALL artillery races are this? Empire,  dwarf, chorf, VC... ect what you on about? 

They shred large and infantry, super accurate maybe a thing but im also think its an arch in their projectiles? which is also mechanic based?

Well, they have a strong emphasis by having artillery, war machines and literal grenadiers. So, artillery focus. If they have a focus around artillery, they should be competitive in that area and be somewhat good in that.

If they're able to hit their target more than other artillery units from races then they deal more damage. I guess it doesn't matter though because Dwarfs are still more accurate than Cathay with cannons. The answer to your question probably lies in the projectile sizes. Cathay seems to use huge missiles which penetrate more models and they're more effective in killing off infantry. It just looks like they are launching catapult stone projectiles, rather than gunpower cannonballs. 

Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Dwarfs cannons do nothing compared to cathay and dwarf end game is low range which ends up useless as they end up not being able to shoot while cathay have mega long range with tech and skills.

Grudge throwers end up better than dwarf cannons which is such a shame as i love cannons

Maybe not, but whatever minimal damage Cannons do, the rest of Dwarf roster can clean up easily, because they have a huge choice of artillery and also better infantry than Cathay. If all you want is damage, then you can always stack Master Engineers to amp it.

Cathay doesn't have as many good choices imo, so cannons being the uber unit for everything while being cost effective is kind of ok. 

I love cathay infantry and their ranged units are very strong. 

Dwarf have no cav but gyros are very good these days while lanterns are totally pointless! Still not tuned yet. 

But cathay have crane gunners with are insane and shred dwarfs.

Dwarfs are basically useless vrs cathay as cathay have counters to everything they have. Cathay arty out ranges dwarf so much they can snipe all their arty without retaliation.

Cathay also have wizards. 

Cathay infantry is so tanky and has super morale they normally fight to the death even the peasants are good especially for price.

Tier 2 halberds just solid af all rounders while dwarfs have no al infantry bar slayers which suck at holding the line. 

Id overall say cathay is superior than dwarfs. Dwarfs also lack big aoe where cathay has arty, flying arty, spells and grenades now! 

Its hard to say what dwarfs have that they dont have better? Better infantry? Celestial guards are tier 4 and anti large also... hammerers maybe beat them but im not actually sure and I doubt its a solid win if they do and the hammeres would lose vrs any large.

Ofc the game is about complete composition anyway but that's my point cathay just do everything better than dwarfs and maybe this is power creep as its a way newer faction.

Cathay has better infantry than empire but weaker cav. Better arty but on par wizards. Weaker heroes and dwarf have better heroes too. But cathay is new a solid hero in the future hopefully. 

I just feel like I can build 6 halberds as cathay and they will hold vrs anything as the rest of my army will deal with anything that can overwhelm them and they are much better than empire infantry who just melt bar greatswords but then no Al same issue as dwarfs. 

I mean I love playing all 3 factions and kislev but cathay are just easy mode from start to finish. 

Dwarfs have all round better infantry, because they are tankier and deal more damage. They are more specialised for melee engagements than Cathay, while also having a better selection of weapon teams. Trollhammers and Irondrakes are really good. Slayers are meant to deter flanking units and they do that pretty well, so if Cathay would try to exploit aerial space they could always punish them with standard Slayer variants and this is fine imo. If we would talk specifically about Dwarf vs Cathay infantry then Dwarfs would own Cathay in everything. Dwarfs' lack of BvL units doesn't make them weak against large units, because they have a large selection of stuff to hamper then, like Runesmiths' runes and combined arms of shooters with small arm missile units, artillery and gyros. Although, yeah, if Dwarfs lose their defensive advantage when artillery is sniped off, it's harder for them to win those battles I guess and Crane Gunners being a thing is also a large detriment.

Dwarfs should be better than Cathay defensively, especially if Cathay has fast flanking units and monsters. I don't think buffing cannons to match Grand Cannons is the way to go though, because Cathay has a bazillion of buffs, so that's a headache to match like for like. I think CA should overhaul the Zhufbar 42 pounders to be more effective in destroying artillery pieces and/or killing off models. It's a range-free army ability that's kind of redundant, but would be a hard counter to artillery units and weapon teams, since it's range-free. So, you could snipe the units from afar and then have a defensive engagement that you want. I would say just play more offensively with Rangers, but that's probably suicidal against Cathay xD

I agree dwarfs should be king of defense but as is they are out ranged by the other arty factions and with no fast units bar the gyros who are only good vrs none heavy ranged factions basically leaves the dwarfs way below others...

Biggest weakness of dwarfs is no good long range aoe

No spells

No al front line

Their top tier arty is sooo short ranged its hard to get value from it especially vrs fast and other arty factions

Tanky infantry means nothing as they are slow and can't break formation so just get picked apart.

Even the tb is terrible after the nerfs and will get shot down instantly vrs other arty factions.

Dwarfs are actually so easy to kill as the player and now greenskins have so much early ap even they handle them with ease! 

And as I mentioned cathay are the only solid faction with good al front line that doesn't melt to get full value from their ranged units.

Empire halberds don't have enough armor or shields for late game use its better to have a cavalry front line as empire which is very good btw but then suffers vrs al

Cathay is basically dwarfs and elves mixed it gets the best of both them factions. Cathays cav is weak but they don't move so don't even need to use cav! 

Dwarfs have so much different infantry buy its all just variants in the end and with no solid front line vrs large they suffer from large attacks... slayers do kill large units but also suffer massive losses and are weak vrs any ranged fire. 

Its hard to say anything is good for dwarfs these days. Siege battles they are very solid ill give them that but so are cathay.

I'd say empire is better than dwarfs as again it has solid arty but also solid cav and wizards. 

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Data5#9904 wrote:

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Passthechips#4366 wrote:

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hurricane501#1568 wrote:
Hmm it would be nice to see the stats side by side to work out why exactly they do but projectile size sounds about right tbh, that or more aoe on impact id say.

Here you go.

That twwstats don't have all stats, I'm digging in db and still can't explain it.

The cannon itself is higher and turns slightly faster.

Wow nice one thanks for investigating this its so weird and if something is off maybe other factions cannons are bugged! as stat wise they should all be the same power