They break Skullcrushers, even the Brazien Throne in melee. They win against Crushers with Great Weapons.

Should it be this close? doubt it.

OK. 

​

ArchonPrime#7996 wrote:

The last buff was a bit excessive, not only for Fireborn, but also DP is OP now. They easily tore apart the two variants of CK and have cheaper price，higher LS and speed, which is simply outrageous

They should be mainly good at charging, even though they are more of a general unit for the late game, them just bulldozing things in melee is broken. Ogre cav should stomp basically everything they come across and it is tad nonsensical that monster cav loses to horse cav. Unless there is a specific balance in mind, but I don't see it. High Elves are not exactly lacking in flanking units so these decisive victories against everything and anything is kind of over the top.

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

The reason Fireborn are so good against Khorne is because of their crazy Fire Resistance. Almost all the high tier stuff in Khorne does fire damage which is a massive Boon for them. Skullcrushers also under perform they need a buff. 

I've found the best way to deal with HE as Khorne right now is to go wide with Beastmen units. Khorngor, Minotaur of Khorne GW, Warhounds of Khorne and a lord that doesn't do Fire damage. Abraal, Chaos Lord or Blood Priest are the only options there.

Sometimes Fire damage isn't the best ability to have. 

​

XxXScorpionXxX#2310 wrote:

The reason Fireborn are so good against Khorne is because of their crazy Fire Resistance. Almost all the high tier stuff in Khorne does fire damage which is a massive Boon for them. Skullcrushers also under perform they need a buff. 

I've found the best way to deal with HE as Khorne right now is to go wide with Beastmen units. Khorngor, Minotaur of Khorne GW, Warhounds of Khorne and a lord that doesn't do Fire damage. Abraal, Chaos Lord or Blood Priest are the only options there.

Sometimes Fire damage isn't the best ability to have. 

True, but that doesn't mean the unit is OK. They shouldn't be able to beat Crushers with GW. Skullcrushers. Maybe? considering its RoR? but Crushers are the hard line. There is no other unit, apart from Altdorf Gryphites (which could use a nerf too, this thing considered) that can beat them head on.

There is a confusing balance issue here.

Is the solution to adjust fire born or to adjust the crushers? It pays to look at the analysis from the opposite side of table. If fire born are not breaking the game itself, then the issue is likely a much more localized event. 

I personally would look at the crushers first. They have things that are inherently not working in their favor against cavalry in general. They are an anti-large unit that does splash attacks (4) into cavalry. That's probably not helping them in this fight, and it doesn't seem to be in harmony (Cathayan humor) with the unit's identity. Their model count is another area worth looking into. It's been proven that monstrous units with fewer than 16 models underperform. Gorges, Rot Flies, Fiends, and "everyone else that I can't remember" have been hampered by the decision to reduce their model count. Each one of them has seen an immediate and impactful change of direction after having their number of entities increased. 

At face value, it seems like it's the crushers and not the dragon princes RoR. 

​

Funzo#7954 wrote:

Is the solution to adjust fire born or to adjust the crushers? It pays to look at the analysis from the opposite side of table. If fire born are not breaking the game itself, then the issue is likely a much more localized event. 

I personally would look at the crushers first. They have things that are inherently not working in their favor against cavalry in general. They are an anti-large unit that does splash attacks (4) into cavalry. That's probably not helping them in this fight, and it doesn't seem to be in harmony (Cathayan humor) with the unit's identity. Their model count is another area worth looking into. It's been proven that monstrous units with fewer than 16 models underperform. Gorges, Rot Flies, Fiends, and "everyone else that I can't remember" have been hampered by the decision to reduce their model count. Each one of them has seen an immediate and impactful change of direction after having their number of entities increased. 

At face value, it seems like it's the crushers and not the dragon princes RoR. 

That RoR has too many good things going for it. It shouldn't be that good in prolonged melee. On charge yeah, but not in a further engagement. 

Crushers beat everything cavalry related apart from Altdorf Gryphites, Fireborn and Sylvan Knights RoR. Sylvan Knights are not even an upgrade to Stag Knights because they just work differently with all that physical resistancr and they can lose to Yahetees, so its not even a big deal, but Gryphites and Fireborn are way too overtuned. Their standard units are nowhere near that powerful. It just seems like someone looked at these units and thought "yeah. This looks dope. Let's make it OP". 

What you point out is a spacing problem between models imo, they just get swarmed and don't have the MD to keep fighting everything off. I didn't do any tests to be exactly sure this is the case, but thats what it looks like, considering Fireborn have tighter ranks and presumably it's easier to deflect blows and so they have this absurd staying power while dealing absurd damage. 

On average, it takes 5 hits (not attacks) for a crusher to kill a single Dragon Prince model (either version). Every time that they miss it increases the ability of the Dragon Princes to stay alive and do damage in return. Dragon Prince RoR has a higher chance of evading an attack from the crushers than the crushers do of evading an attack from the RoR Dragon Princes because of Martial Mastery. 

What seems to be tilting the match-up is the bonus vs large of 15 and the inverted armor piercing ratio of the RoR Dragon Princes. Which should be more common than it is for cavalry that is supposed to be good at fighting heavily armored large units. 

​

Funzo#7954 wrote:

On average, it takes 5 hits (not attacks) for a crusher to kill a single Dragon Prince model (either version). Every time that they miss it increases the ability of the Dragon Princes to stay alive and do damage in return. Dragon Prince RoR has a higher chance of evading an attack from the crushers than the crushers do of evading an attack from the RoR Dragon Princes because of Martial Mastery. 

What seems to be tilting the match-up is the bonus vs large of 15 and the inverted armor piercing ratio of the RoR Dragon Princes. Which should be more common than it is for cavalry that is supposed to be good at fighting heavily armored large units. 

That would be a disagree from me, Crushers are meant to be good at sweeping large units, its why they have BvL and Great Weapons. CA started handing out BvL because people didn't want to be bothered with making the right engagements with cavalry and this doesn't mean every cav unit should be getting this. 

I reckon Dragon Princes should lose either its BvL or AP to move it closer to its standard variant as a generalist flanking unit. 

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

I don't think you get my point. Fireborn are incredibly easy to counter for pretty much every faction, as they rely on their MD and resistances to survive. Debuff them, damage them with spells, missiles, whatever, and they will go down much faster than Crushers or Knights of the Brazen Throne. 

Your argument seems to essentially be "This unit beats my unit 1v1 when at 100% HP and should therefore be nerfed" which doesn't make sense when looking at the factions as a whole. 

What do Khorne get? Incredibly cost effective melee units across the board, spell resistance and powerful army abilities (oops Sword of Khorne wiped your army).

What do Ogres get? Massive artillery advantages, and insane army abilities (one Trollguts and your Crushers are good as new, and with only 12 unit models they will can be healed to max even when seriously wounded).

What are High Elves supposed to get? Martial Prowess. Their ENTIRE FACTION MECHANIC is centered around their infantry and cavalry trading up in 1v1 if they are allowed to engage at 100% HP. Look at what happens to Fireborn when they drop below 25% HP, it's pathetic. High Elves are among the bottom tier factions in MP because their units are judged in a 1v1 vacuum, without taking into consideration that there are a more counters to low HP Elven units than there are to high HP powerhouses like Khorne or Ogres. If I have to meticulously manage my 6800 HP Fireborn and avoid any uneven engagements just to have them DOWNTRADE into other units that will shrug off a Bjuna or Final Transmutation like it's nobody's business then the game is inherently unbalanced. 

tl;dr: Fireborn are fine and it's hilarious to hear someone who mentions Ogre Kingdoms and Khorne units, two of the most powerful factions in the game, complain about balancing 

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

I don't think you get my point. Fireborn are incredibly easy to counter for pretty much every faction, as they rely on their MD and resistances to survive. Debuff them, damage them with spells, missiles, whatever, and they will go down much faster than Crushers or Knights of the Brazen Throne. 

Your argument seems to essentially be "This unit beats my unit 1v1 when at 100% HP and should therefore be nerfed" which doesn't make sense when looking at the factions as a whole. 

What do Khorne get? Incredibly cost effective melee units across the board, spell resistance and powerful army abilities (oops Sword of Khorne wiped your army).

What do Ogres get? Massive artillery advantages, and insane army abilities (one Trollguts and your Crushers are good as new, and with only 12 unit models they will can be healed to max even when seriously wounded).

What are High Elves supposed to get? Martial Prowess. Their ENTIRE FACTION MECHANIC is centered around their infantry and cavalry trading up in 1v1 if they are allowed to engage at 100% HP. Look at what happens to Fireborn when they drop below 25% HP, it's pathetic. High Elves are among the bottom tier factions in MP because their units are judged in a 1v1 vacuum, without taking into consideration that there are a more counters to low HP Elven units than there are to high HP powerhouses like Khorne or Ogres. If I have to meticulously manage my 6800 HP Fireborn and avoid any uneven engagements just to have them DOWNTRADE into other units that will shrug off a Bjuna or Final Transmutation like it's nobody's business then the game is inherently unbalanced. 

tl;dr: Fireborn are fine and it's hilarious to hear someone who mentions Ogre Kingdoms and Khorne units, two of the most powerful factions in the game, complain about balancing 

I don't think you get the point. High Elf units are meant to be squishy. This is the design philosophy of the roster. No, they are not meant to trade well with Rhinox cav or juggernaut cav, because they are squishy and easy to damage. Their advantage is martial skill and this is working as intended. Them beating on monster cav is not, they deal too much damage in prolonged melee. 

You are meant to bring in your own support units to trade better, use magic, flyers, healing or other tools to gain the upper hand for those engagements, because High Elves are not about outdoing powerful units 1 v 1 like you claim, but making effective trades and winning with support units. 

The only hilarious thing going kn is you trying hard to understand the perspective and failing at it. All I am complaining about is the inconsistency in performance and this was explained here already. 

Fireborn are not "fine" and need to be tuned down. 

It literally takes a single Frostheast Phoenix, to win with the standard variant of Dragon Princes with Crushers GW. From what I can see, High Elf units may be a tad too expensive and Martial Prowess could maybe use an overhaul, but this dumb overtuning of cav to make them beat monster cav, to make them...win with whatever small amount of HP left they get is stupid. 

So High Elves are supposed to be squishy but excel in martial combat, but my only access to an AP anti-large cavalry on the roster, and an RoR at that, is not allowed to trade well into armored large cavalry when allowed to get the charge, benefit from their Phys Res and engage at 100% HP? You say that the way for me to win engagements is to simply spend more gold on casters, flyers, missiles etc., but there are multiple engagements across a battlefield, and unless I am allowed more gold than my opponent then I am going to lose. It's not like other factions can't also bring support, I could just as well recommend you use your Leadbelchers against my Fireborn. 

Relying on combined arms is a tactic that works for armies that can afford it, like the Empire. If I am forced to bring Dragon Princes and a Frostheart Phoenix, i.e a total of 2900 gold, to beat a single 1900 gold gold unit, then boy am I in trouble.

I would just dodge missile fire. Dragon Princes are fast in that regard.

I struggle to understand how making Fireborn AP and BvL (against roster design philosophy) make these engagements actually better, with how squishy they are. Fireborn are pretty worn out by the time they are done beating on AL monster cav units. It's not like High Elves struggle to field good troops to be cost effective against Ogres at all, apparently all you need is one unit of Spearmen and one unit of Sisters to deal with Crushers. 

High Elves should field cheaper units, have their Martial Prowess touch on reload times/accuracy and infantry regiments have charge resistances to fight better against Khorne, since they lack the trading units in that regard and give more time for missile units to fire at them.

But Fireborns BvL or AP needs to go. Devs can totally make them work using TT rules. There is a First Charge rule, that presumably can make them stun a charged unit on contact, lowering their movement and so taking away some of their mass and making it difficult for the opposing models to charge themselves, to cause damage. Then there is no need to hand out AP where it shouldn't go.

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

I don't think you get my point. Fireborn are incredibly easy to counter for pretty much every faction, as they rely on their MD and resistances to survive. Debuff them, damage them with spells, missiles, whatever, and they will go down much faster than Crushers or Knights of the Brazen Throne. 

Your argument seems to essentially be "This unit beats my unit 1v1 when at 100% HP and should therefore be nerfed" which doesn't make sense when looking at the factions as a whole. 

What do Khorne get? Incredibly cost effective melee units across the board, spell resistance and powerful army abilities (oops Sword of Khorne wiped your army).

What do Ogres get? Massive artillery advantages, and insane army abilities (one Trollguts and your Crushers are good as new, and with only 12 unit models they will can be healed to max even when seriously wounded).

What are High Elves supposed to get? Martial Prowess. Their ENTIRE FACTION MECHANIC is centered around their infantry and cavalry trading up in 1v1 if they are allowed to engage at 100% HP. Look at what happens to Fireborn when they drop below 25% HP, it's pathetic. High Elves are among the bottom tier factions in MP because their units are judged in a 1v1 vacuum, without taking into consideration that there are a more counters to low HP Elven units than there are to high HP powerhouses like Khorne or Ogres. If I have to meticulously manage my 6800 HP Fireborn and avoid any uneven engagements just to have them DOWNTRADE into other units that will shrug off a Bjuna or Final Transmutation like it's nobody's business then the game is inherently unbalanced. 

tl;dr: Fireborn are fine and it's hilarious to hear someone who mentions Ogre Kingdoms and Khorne units, two of the most powerful factions in the game, complain about balancing 

I don't think you get the point. High Elf units are meant to be squishy. This is the design philosophy of the roster. No, they are not meant to trade well with Rhinox cav or juggernaut cav, because they are squishy and easy to damage. Their advantage is martial skill and this is working as intended. Them beating on monster cav is not, they deal too much damage in prolonged melee. 

You are meant to bring in your own support units to trade better, use magic, flyers, healing or other tools to gain the upper hand for those engagements, because High Elves are not about outdoing powerful units 1 v 1 like you claim, but making effective trades and winning with support units. 

The only hilarious thing going kn is you trying hard to understand the perspective and failing at it. All I am complaining about is the inconsistency in performance and this was explained here already. 

Fireborn are not "fine" and need to be tuned down. 

It literally takes a single Frostheast Phoenix, to win with the standard variant of Dragon Princes with Crushers GW. From what I can see, High Elf units may be a tad too expensive and Martial Prowess could maybe use an overhaul, but this dumb overtuning of cav to make them beat monster cav, to make them...win with whatever small amount of HP left they get is stupid. 

So High Elves are supposed to be squishy but excel in martial combat, but my only access to an AP anti-large cavalry on the roster, and an RoR at that, is not allowed to trade well into armored large cavalry when allowed to get the charge, benefit from their Phys Res and engage at 100% HP? You say that the way for me to win engagements is to simply spend more gold on casters, flyers, missiles etc., but there are multiple engagements across a battlefield, and unless I am allowed more gold than my opponent then I am going to lose. It's not like other factions can't also bring support, I could just as well recommend you use your Leadbelchers against my Fireborn. 

Relying on combined arms is a tactic that works for armies that can afford it, like the Empire. If I am forced to bring Dragon Princes and a Frostheart Phoenix, i.e a total of 2900 gold, to beat a single 1900 gold gold unit, then boy am I in trouble.

I would just dodge missile fire. Dragon Princes are fast in that regard.

I struggle to understand how making Fireborn AP and BvL (against roster design philosophy) make these engagements actually better, with how squishy they are. Fireborn are pretty worn out by the time they are done beating on AL monster cav units. It's not like High Elves struggle to field good troops to be cost effective against Ogres at all, apparently all you need is one unit of Spearmen and one unit of Sisters to deal with Crushers. 

High Elves should field cheaper units, have their Martial Prowess touch on reload times/accuracy and infantry regiments have charge resistances to fight better against Khorne, since they lack the trading units in that regard and give more time for missile units to fire at them.

But Fireborns BvL or AP needs to go. Devs can totally make them work using TT rules. There is a First Charge rule, that presumably can make them stun a charged unit on contact, lowering their movement and so taking away some of their mass and making it difficult for the opposing models to charge themselves, to cause damage. Then there is no need to hand out AP where it shouldn't go.

Fireborn can definitely not dodge Leadbelcher cannon fire. I'm not sure what your following argument is - if Fireborn are worn out after fighting other AL cav then they aren't OP, are they? 

And I don't know where you get the idea that High Elves don't struggle vs OK - the match up is so lopsided in favour of OK that's it's almost auto-lose. High Elves have nothing they can do against Thundertusks and Leadbelchers. 

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

I don't think you get my point. Fireborn are incredibly easy to counter for pretty much every faction, as they rely on their MD and resistances to survive. Debuff them, damage them with spells, missiles, whatever, and they will go down much faster than Crushers or Knights of the Brazen Throne. 

Your argument seems to essentially be "This unit beats my unit 1v1 when at 100% HP and should therefore be nerfed" which doesn't make sense when looking at the factions as a whole. 

What do Khorne get? Incredibly cost effective melee units across the board, spell resistance and powerful army abilities (oops Sword of Khorne wiped your army).

What do Ogres get? Massive artillery advantages, and insane army abilities (one Trollguts and your Crushers are good as new, and with only 12 unit models they will can be healed to max even when seriously wounded).

What are High Elves supposed to get? Martial Prowess. Their ENTIRE FACTION MECHANIC is centered around their infantry and cavalry trading up in 1v1 if they are allowed to engage at 100% HP. Look at what happens to Fireborn when they drop below 25% HP, it's pathetic. High Elves are among the bottom tier factions in MP because their units are judged in a 1v1 vacuum, without taking into consideration that there are a more counters to low HP Elven units than there are to high HP powerhouses like Khorne or Ogres. If I have to meticulously manage my 6800 HP Fireborn and avoid any uneven engagements just to have them DOWNTRADE into other units that will shrug off a Bjuna or Final Transmutation like it's nobody's business then the game is inherently unbalanced. 

tl;dr: Fireborn are fine and it's hilarious to hear someone who mentions Ogre Kingdoms and Khorne units, two of the most powerful factions in the game, complain about balancing 

I don't think you get the point. High Elf units are meant to be squishy. This is the design philosophy of the roster. No, they are not meant to trade well with Rhinox cav or juggernaut cav, because they are squishy and easy to damage. Their advantage is martial skill and this is working as intended. Them beating on monster cav is not, they deal too much damage in prolonged melee. 

You are meant to bring in your own support units to trade better, use magic, flyers, healing or other tools to gain the upper hand for those engagements, because High Elves are not about outdoing powerful units 1 v 1 like you claim, but making effective trades and winning with support units. 

The only hilarious thing going kn is you trying hard to understand the perspective and failing at it. All I am complaining about is the inconsistency in performance and this was explained here already. 

Fireborn are not "fine" and need to be tuned down. 

It literally takes a single Frostheast Phoenix, to win with the standard variant of Dragon Princes with Crushers GW. From what I can see, High Elf units may be a tad too expensive and Martial Prowess could maybe use an overhaul, but this dumb overtuning of cav to make them beat monster cav, to make them...win with whatever small amount of HP left they get is stupid. 

So High Elves are supposed to be squishy but excel in martial combat, but my only access to an AP anti-large cavalry on the roster, and an RoR at that, is not allowed to trade well into armored large cavalry when allowed to get the charge, benefit from their Phys Res and engage at 100% HP? You say that the way for me to win engagements is to simply spend more gold on casters, flyers, missiles etc., but there are multiple engagements across a battlefield, and unless I am allowed more gold than my opponent then I am going to lose. It's not like other factions can't also bring support, I could just as well recommend you use your Leadbelchers against my Fireborn. 

Relying on combined arms is a tactic that works for armies that can afford it, like the Empire. If I am forced to bring Dragon Princes and a Frostheart Phoenix, i.e a total of 2900 gold, to beat a single 1900 gold gold unit, then boy am I in trouble.

I would just dodge missile fire. Dragon Princes are fast in that regard.

I struggle to understand how making Fireborn AP and BvL (against roster design philosophy) make these engagements actually better, with how squishy they are. Fireborn are pretty worn out by the time they are done beating on AL monster cav units. It's not like High Elves struggle to field good troops to be cost effective against Ogres at all, apparently all you need is one unit of Spearmen and one unit of Sisters to deal with Crushers. 

High Elves should field cheaper units, have their Martial Prowess touch on reload times/accuracy and infantry regiments have charge resistances to fight better against Khorne, since they lack the trading units in that regard and give more time for missile units to fire at them.

But Fireborns BvL or AP needs to go. Devs can totally make them work using TT rules. There is a First Charge rule, that presumably can make them stun a charged unit on contact, lowering their movement and so taking away some of their mass and making it difficult for the opposing models to charge themselves, to cause damage. Then there is no need to hand out AP where it shouldn't go.

Fireborn can definitely not dodge Leadbelcher cannon fire. I'm not sure what your following argument is - if Fireborn are worn out after fighting other AL cav then they aren't OP, are they? 

And I don't know where you get the idea that High Elves don't struggle vs OK - the match up is so lopsided in favour of OK that's it's almost auto-lose. High Elves have nothing they can do against Thundertusks and Leadbelchers. 

Firebirn definitely dodge leadbelcher volleys, which I know because I did that with Dragon Princes. 

They are OP, because they beat units they shouldn't and have AP, which they shouldn't have. I feel dumb for having to repeat this again and again. 

I call bullshit in that, because they clearly have flying units that can deal with artillery and leadbelchers and they are also so agile they can dodge missile volleys pretty easily. 

I get the idea from the fact, that they have a huge range of tools at their disposal to deal with heavy units. Like Net of Amyntok spells followed by their missile units that can pretty easily shred it to pieces. 

I'm also not sure what you really expect to change. High Elves will not get monsters to block Thundertusks, so you can continue to halt them in place with cavalry like you probably do now if you don't like the Net of Amyntok spell and deal with this all the same. 

Alright, they might dodge a few volleys at max range but a simple lapse in micro and those cannon shots pummel through the unit. 

I simply fail to see the issue here, Fireborn have AP and AL, and they pay for that with a hefty premium, and you can only ever bring a single one. They do well if they are allowed to fight other large units, and get whacked by artillery, spells and any engagement where their melee stats plummet (exhaustion, magic debuffs etc). They then trade upwards into other units like Skullcrushers and Rhinox, who have far fewer counters and rely less on their melee defense because their HP pools allow them to tank damage anyway.  

It seems you don't want High Elves to have an AP AL unit because it goes "against their faction identity", but exactly what about the High Elven faction identity forbids them to get an AP anti-large unit, while similar factions like Kislev, Dark Elves, the Empire and Bretonnia all get it?

Flyers will usually get whalloped if they try to charge into an Ogre box, and seen as Leadbelchers outrange High Elven archers they can pummel their tight infantry formations before they get into range. Mournfang cav will wipe out any attempt at mobility envelopment with Dragon Princes/Silver Helms. 

And Thundertusks are probably the most blatantly OP unit since the Thunderbarge, with Khorne Wrathmongers coming in second place. For 2300 gold you get a moving artillery piece with a slow effect with better stats than a Stonehorn, and on top of that it gets to fire javelins. 

There's a reason why Ogre Kingdoms and specifically Thundertusks are banned in a lot of tournaments. High Elves are a bottom tier faction and I don't see the point in asking for nerfs to their few decent units. 

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

​

KhaineIncarnate#6730 wrote:

​

turrehund#8512 wrote:

Fireborn have a pathetically low HP pool and get nuked by Bjuna, Searing Doom etc. Try putting a Bjuna on Crushers or Skullcrushers and see what happens. Knights of the Brazen Throne have fire resistance so Fireborn have 55% resistance into them, not sure what you expect here. 

Basically Fireborn are perfectly fine, and are easily countered by magic or anything that can nuke down their low HP pools.

What kind of a close minded take is this, then? Skullcrushers have innate magic resistance to resist Bjuna, Crushers have a low model count. Obviously, magic your problem, not the fact the unit is OP and should be toned down.

They are not fine, because they win engagements they shouldn't. Raise their Spell Resistance so you can have your MP battles or whatever and then done.

I don't think you get my point. Fireborn are incredibly easy to counter for pretty much every faction, as they rely on their MD and resistances to survive. Debuff them, damage them with spells, missiles, whatever, and they will go down much faster than Crushers or Knights of the Brazen Throne. 

Your argument seems to essentially be "This unit beats my unit 1v1 when at 100% HP and should therefore be nerfed" which doesn't make sense when looking at the factions as a whole. 

What do Khorne get? Incredibly cost effective melee units across the board, spell resistance and powerful army abilities (oops Sword of Khorne wiped your army).

What do Ogres get? Massive artillery advantages, and insane army abilities (one Trollguts and your Crushers are good as new, and with only 12 unit models they will can be healed to max even when seriously wounded).

What are High Elves supposed to get? Martial Prowess. Their ENTIRE FACTION MECHANIC is centered around their infantry and cavalry trading up in 1v1 if they are allowed to engage at 100% HP. Look at what happens to Fireborn when they drop below 25% HP, it's pathetic. High Elves are among the bottom tier factions in MP because their units are judged in a 1v1 vacuum, without taking into consideration that there are a more counters to low HP Elven units than there are to high HP powerhouses like Khorne or Ogres. If I have to meticulously manage my 6800 HP Fireborn and avoid any uneven engagements just to have them DOWNTRADE into other units that will shrug off a Bjuna or Final Transmutation like it's nobody's business then the game is inherently unbalanced. 

tl;dr: Fireborn are fine and it's hilarious to hear someone who mentions Ogre Kingdoms and Khorne units, two of the most powerful factions in the game, complain about balancing 

I don't think you get the point. High Elf units are meant to be squishy. This is the design philosophy of the roster. No, they are not meant to trade well with Rhinox cav or juggernaut cav, because they are squishy and easy to damage. Their advantage is martial skill and this is working as intended. Them beating on monster cav is not, they deal too much damage in prolonged melee. 

You are meant to bring in your own support units to trade better, use magic, flyers, healing or other tools to gain the upper hand for those engagements, because High Elves are not about outdoing powerful units 1 v 1 like you claim, but making effective trades and winning with support units. 

The only hilarious thing going kn is you trying hard to understand the perspective and failing at it. All I am complaining about is the inconsistency in performance and this was explained here already. 

Fireborn are not "fine" and need to be tuned down. 

It literally takes a single Frostheast Phoenix, to win with the standard variant of Dragon Princes with Crushers GW. From what I can see, High Elf units may be a tad too expensive and Martial Prowess could maybe use an overhaul, but this dumb overtuning of cav to make them beat monster cav, to make them...win with whatever small amount of HP left they get is stupid. 

So High Elves are supposed to be squishy but excel in martial combat, but my only access to an AP anti-large cavalry on the roster, and an RoR at that, is not allowed to trade well into armored large cavalry when allowed to get the charge, benefit from their Phys Res and engage at 100% HP? You say that the way for me to win engagements is to simply spend more gold on casters, flyers, missiles etc., but there are multiple engagements across a battlefield, and unless I am allowed more gold than my opponent then I am going to lose. It's not like other factions can't also bring support, I could just as well recommend you use your Leadbelchers against my Fireborn. 

Relying on combined arms is a tactic that works for armies that can afford it, like the Empire. If I am forced to bring Dragon Princes and a Frostheart Phoenix, i.e a total of 2900 gold, to beat a single 1900 gold gold unit, then boy am I in trouble.

I would just dodge missile fire. Dragon Princes are fast in that regard.

I struggle to understand how making Fireborn AP and BvL (against roster design philosophy) make these engagements actually better, with how squishy they are. Fireborn are pretty worn out by the time they are done beating on AL monster cav units. It's not like High Elves struggle to field good troops to be cost effective against Ogres at all, apparently all you need is one unit of Spearmen and one unit of Sisters to deal with Crushers. 

High Elves should field cheaper units, have their Martial Prowess touch on reload times/accuracy and infantry regiments have charge resistances to fight better against Khorne, since they lack the trading units in that regard and give more time for missile units to fire at them.

But Fireborns BvL or AP needs to go. Devs can totally make them work using TT rules. There is a First Charge rule, that presumably can make them stun a charged unit on contact, lowering their movement and so taking away some of their mass and making it difficult for the opposing models to charge themselves, to cause damage. Then there is no need to hand out AP where it shouldn't go.

Fireborn can definitely not dodge Leadbelcher cannon fire. I'm not sure what your following argument is - if Fireborn are worn out after fighting other AL cav then they aren't OP, are they? 

And I don't know where you get the idea that High Elves don't struggle vs OK - the match up is so lopsided in favour of OK that's it's almost auto-lose. High Elves have nothing they can do against Thundertusks and Leadbelchers. 

Firebirn definitely dodge leadbelcher volleys, which I know because I did that with Dragon Princes. 

They are OP, because they beat units they shouldn't and have AP, which they shouldn't have. I feel dumb for having to repeat this again and again. 

I call bullshit in that, because they clearly have flying units that can deal with artillery and leadbelchers and they are also so agile they can dodge missile volleys pretty easily. 

I get the idea from the fact, that they have a huge range of tools at their disposal to deal with heavy units. Like Net of Amyntok spells followed by their missile units that can pretty easily shred it to pieces. 

I'm also not sure what you really expect to change. High Elves will not get monsters to block Thundertusks, so you can continue to halt them in place with cavalry like you probably do now if you don't like the Net of Amyntok spell and deal with this all the same. 

Alright, they might dodge a few volleys at max range but a simple lapse in micro and those cannon shots pummel through the unit. 

I simply fail to see the issue here, Fireborn have AP and AL, and they pay for that with a hefty premium, and you can only ever bring a single one. They do well if they are allowed to fight other large units, and get whacked by artillery, spells and any engagement where their melee stats plummet (exhaustion, magic debuffs etc). They then trade upwards into other units like Skullcrushers and Rhinox, who have far fewer counters and rely less on their melee defense because their HP pools allow them to tank damage anyway.  

It seems you don't want High Elves to have an AP AL unit because it goes "against their faction identity", but exactly what about the High Elven faction identity forbids them to get an AP anti-large unit, while similar factions like Kislev, Dark Elves, the Empire and Bretonnia all get it?

Flyers will usually get whalloped if they try to charge into an Ogre box, and seen as Leadbelchers outrange High Elven archers they can pummel their tight infantry formations before they get into range. Mournfang cav will wipe out any attempt at mobility envelopment with Dragon Princes/Silver Helms. 

And Thundertusks are probably the most blatantly OP unit since the Thunderbarge, with Khorne Wrathmongers coming in second place. For 2300 gold you get a moving artillery piece with a slow effect with better stats than a Stonehorn, and on top of that it gets to fire javelins. 

There's a reason why Ogre Kingdoms and specifically Thundertusks are banned in a lot of tournaments. High Elves are a bottom tier faction and I don't see the point in asking for nerfs to their few decent units. 

That's why you're supposed to close them down with flyers. I dodged their volleys and only lost about 400 HP from the two missiles shots they managed to fire, charged at them and routed them soon later.

Dragon Princes should rely on technique and abilities to beat monsters, charges, spells and maybe other support. They have a large selection of TT rules CA can implement, to give them this edge and a "stun" charge attack is one of them imo. If they can literally negate a charge from a charged unit, they take zero damage and this is the direction CA should be taking, making the unit technical, not just damage in, damage out.

Empire and Kislev use monster cavalry? empire also specialise with demigryphs in anti large, because their riders have halberds. Same with Dark Elves, which ride of Cold Ones and if you examine Dread Knights, they have maces, which are effective against armour. So, all these races you mentioned are equipped to deal armour piercing. Fireborn bear enchanted lances, so they should get Fire Weakness on contact, maybe keep BvL, at most, but no actual AP to beat Monster Cavalry in prolonged melee. They have the profile of a shock cav that can keep itself in melee, but should never outdo in damage. On the contrary also, I do believe Altdorf Gryphites should also be nerfed, considering they beat everything in the game this is just nonsensical.

Leadbelchers and Thundertusks should be capped to 2/1 per army and 1, respectively. I already mentioned changes I want to see with Martial Prowess, with reload times/accuracy and charge resistances for infantry and this should help with fighting Khorne and Ogres, which both specialise in charging and deal their damage while charging. High Elves should also recruit their units cheaper, so that you can afford the support you need with magic and cavalry, because this seems to be the issue. Infantry should take a 25-75 gold slash, monsters should take a cut too and then you can have a more flexible selection of spells, extra missile units or better support units.